Biking through pedestrian crosswalks w/o stop signs or traffic lights

[mstone]

@Steve O 121292 wrote:

What does 90% slower mean, then? If it’s the same as 10 times slower, then your math is odd in that you are claiming that 0.9 = 10.

No, I’m claiming that 1 * slower != 0, therefore the rest of your theorem must be false.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@peterw_diy 121293 wrote:

Steve O, nobody cares.

You can’t possibly know that.

[Raymo853]

If it went to court or even mediation, a smart advocate could have crushed you, the driver, on the “few seconds” and “10 times”. Such language is sloppy and will cause you to fair poorly in such situations. It also makes me think you may have tendency to exaggerate and based on that, I say you are probably at fault.

[Kitty]

I agree that this would be difficult to make a legality call due to a lack of black and white rulinging on bike collisions in this area.

What gets me as a cyclist is that there is that there is a “magic button” there that turns on the lights and (supposedly) stops traffic. Unless the lights are flashing or I am in the crosswalk I never take for granted that the motorists will stop?

Should they? Well if the idea is stop for pedestrians/cyclists who are waiting to cross, then yes. Motorists who are vigilant and considerate of these instances are my favorite. But I can never assume that that is what I’m going to get.

[lordofthemark]

Ah, the beg button crosswalk

A. Yes, there is a beg button, so technically when a cyclist or walker presses it, all traffic should stop. And when it is not pressed, it is one more unsignaled crosswalk – where crossers have an obligation to yield, but once they are in the crosswalk (legally or not) the cross traffic has an obligation to yield, right?

B. The beg button crossing nbound is not that easy to reach when mounted on a bike
C. A very considerable amount of motor vehicle cross traffic ignores the flashing light, as Kwarkentian pointed out
D. Some cross traffic slows and carefully yields to walkers and bikers crossing, even when the light is not flashing.

E. Because of B, C, and D, many cyclists do not bother pressing the beg button, AFAICT.

[dplasters]

As a fun fact, drivers have no obligation to yield to unmarked crosswalks in Virginia if the speed limit on the road is greater than 35 mph. In actuality they just rarely yield to people in any circumstance.

To the point, there is an effective grey area on “disregard to oncoming traffic”. I have no idea what that means. I think most drivers interrupt it as making “a driver that approaches must yield and allow the pedestrian to safely cross the street” impossible. That is, if I cross and the driver has to slow down, in the driver’s perspective I’ve disregarded traffic.

The interpretation changes the denser the area and the more pedestrians there are. As for legal interpretation, not a clue. I just try to stay alive and upright.

[dkel]

@Steve O 121292 wrote:

What does 90% slower mean, then? If it’s the same as 10 times slower, then your math is odd in that you are claiming that 0.9 = 10.

100% slower is standing still. That’s as slow as you can get. 10 times slower is 1,000% slower, and I don’t know what that means.

Another way to look at it is like this:
If I go twice as fast as you, then you go half as fast as me (50% slower)
If I go ten times as fast as you, then you go 1/10th (10%) as fast as me (90% slower).

You’ve just cleared this up. The use of the word “slower” implies an inverse relationship: if I go ten times as fast as you, you go ten times as slow as me (1/10 the speed). You are correct that 0.9 does not equal 10, but 0.1 (the same 1/10 above) is a difference of 0.9 from the original speed. The problem here is language, not mathematics.

But I don’t care.

[lordofthemark]

@dplasters 121316 wrote:

As a fun fact, drivers have no obligation to yield to unmarked crosswalks in Virginia if the speed limit on the road is greater than 35 mph.

Hmmm http://law.justia.com/codes/virginia/2006/toc4602000/46.2-924.html

Drivers to stop for pedestrians; installation of certain signs;penalty.

A. The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to anypedestrian crossing such highway:

1. At any clearly marked crosswalk, whether at mid-block or at the end of anyblock;

2. At any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of thelateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block;

3. At any intersection when the driver is approaching on a highway or streetwhere the legal maximum speed does not exceed 35 miles per hour.

B. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection A of this section, atintersections or crosswalks where the movement of traffic is being regulatedby law-enforcement officers or traffic control devices, the driver shallyield according to the direction of the law-enforcement officer or device.

No pedestrian shall enter or cross an intersection in disregard ofapproaching traffic.

IANAL, but, I think that means that if the driver is approaching an intersection and there is no crosswalk, striped or implicit, there is no obligation to yield, if the speed limit exceeds 35MPH (whereas otherwise there would be an obligation to yield at such intersections). It does not mean there are no implicit crosswalks on 45MPH roads, unless that has been changed.

Note – as a practical matter I would never expect any driver to yield for an implicit crosswalk on a 45MPH road. Since in NoVa they seldom yield at marked crosswalks on 45MPH roads, at implicit crosswalks on 35MPH roads, and even marked crosswalks on 35MPH roads are dicey.

[kwarkentien]

Mind you, the speed limit in Arlington is 25mph unless marked. That’s right, only 25 mph. There are roads marked higher but generally those are only 30 mph (limited access roads like Arlington Blvd, I-66, and I-395 excluded). Columbia Pike, Glebe Road, and George Mason Drive are 30 mph roads (except far western end of the Pike and Glebe south of ~Shirlington Road where they are 35 mph). To the best of my recollection, Shirlington Road is unmarked for speed limit. As such, it is a 25 mph road. Hence, drivers are obligated to yield to crosswalks, marked and unmarked.

[GovernorSilver]

If there’s no traffic light on the crosswalk and I’m on foot or on my bike, I wait for the car(s) to stop. If they don’t stop, I don’t force the issue.

Even if there is a light that is in theory protecting me as I cross, I still keep an eye out.

DC is regularly at the top or near the top of Allstate Insurance’s annual top 20 list of cities with the worst drivers.

[Steve O]

@dkel 121319 wrote:

The problem here is language, not mathematics.

Correct. “90% slower” is clear, correct and unambiguous. “Ten times slower” is, well, maybe clear, not really correct and possibly ambiguous.

I like clear, correct and unambiguous.

If you double your speed, to get back to your original speed you would half it, or go 1/2 as fast. I think calling that two times slower is wrong. Half as fast=two times slower? twice as slow?
But you see this sloppy usage all the time (“he makes 100 times less than the CEO”; “5 times thinner than a human hair”)

But I don’t care.

[americancyclo]

@lordofthemark 121320 wrote:

Hmmm http://law.justia.com/codes/virginia/2006/toc4602000/46.2-924.html

Drivers to stop for pedestrians; installation of certain signs;penalty.

A. The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian crossing such highway:

1. At any clearly marked crosswalk, whether at mid-block or at the end of any block;

2. At any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of thelateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block;

3. At any intersection when the driver is approaching on a highway or streetwhere the legal maximum speed does not exceed 35 miles per hour.

B. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection A of this section, atintersections or crosswalks where the movement of traffic is being regulatedby law-enforcement officers or traffic control devices, the driver shallyield according to the direction of the law-enforcement officer or device.

No pedestrian shall enter or cross an intersection in disregard ofapproaching traffic.

you left out an important part:
The drivers of vehicles entering, crossing, or turning at intersections shall change their course, slow down, or stop if necessary to permit pedestrians to cross such intersections safely and expeditiously.

[bobco85]

Applying the PAL (Predictable, Alert, Lawful) rule, here’s how I think both cyclist/driver did:

Cyclist
Predictable – fail; not stopping/slowing before entering a crosswalk at high/moderate speed (faster than a jog) makes it much harder for traffic to see you
Alert – appeared to be aware of the approaching driver because you lifted your arm to command traffic to stop for you, but you failed to notice the button for the flashing lights that would help you be noticed
Lawful – the crossing was in disregard to oncoming traffic IMO, so it was not lawful; using a hand signal to direct traffic is not a proper technique for crossing a street

Driver
Predictable – if you were not speeding, changing lanes, or doing any other dangerous behavior, then you were exactly where someone would expect you to be and thus predictable
Alert – approaching a crosswalk (signaled or unsignaled does not matter), a driver should be on the lookout for pedestrians/cyclists (even ones acting foolishly)
Lawful – if the cyclist came out suddenly, then you would not be at fault; if not, then it would be your fault

The way this situation was presented, it seems like fault is with both parties. Just because you raise your arm up as you enter a crosswalk does not mean that traffic is suddenly going to stop for you. I have seen fellow cyclists attempt the “Force Stop” and fail (luckily no one got hit). Likewise, when driving, you should expect that someone might be crossing a crosswalk at any moment as you approach and be prepared to stop if needed.

My guess is that the cyclist saw traffic was clear on northbound Shirlington Rd and decided to book it as he crossed the intersection to beat the southbound traffic, nearly getting hit in the process by a driver who was accelerating and not being cautious enough approaching the crosswalk. Angry words were shouted, but luckily in the end it was feelings and not bodies that were hurt.

[dplasters]

@lordofthemark 121320 wrote:

Hmmm http://law.justia.com/codes/virginia/2006/toc4602000/46.2-924.html

Drivers to stop for pedestrians; installation of certain signs;penalty.

A. The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to anypedestrian crossing such highway:

1. At any clearly marked crosswalk, whether at mid-block or at the end of anyblock;

2. At any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of thelateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block;

3. At any intersection when the driver is approaching on a highway or streetwhere the legal maximum speed does not exceed 35 miles per hour.

B. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection A of this section, atintersections or crosswalks where the movement of traffic is being regulatedby law-enforcement officers or traffic control devices, the driver shallyield according to the direction of the law-enforcement officer or device.

No pedestrian shall enter or cross an intersection in disregard ofapproaching traffic.

IANAL, but, I think that means that if the driver is approaching an intersection and there is no crosswalk, striped or implicit, there is no obligation to yield, if the speed limit exceeds 35MPH (whereas otherwise there would be an obligation to yield at such intersections). It does not mean there are no implicit crosswalks on 45MPH roads, unless that has been changed.

Note – as a practical matter I would never expect any driver to yield for an implicit crosswalk on a 45MPH road. Since in NoVa they seldom yield at marked crosswalks on 45MPH roads, at implicit crosswalks on 35MPH roads, and even marked crosswalks on 35MPH roads are dicey.

Fairfax County’s interpretation boils down to:

What are a pedestrian’s legal rights when using crosswalks?

In Virginia, a pedestrian has the right of way if they are not crossing in disregard of oncoming traffic when they are in a crosswalk, or if they are crossing at an unmarked crosswalk on a road that is 35 miles per hour or less.

It is a somewhat common occurrence at the intersection of Lee and Nutley next to the Vienna metro since you can only cross Lee from one side of Nutley and people don’t want to wait to cross to the other side of Nutley. Similarly at Lee and Eskridge/Merrilee Dr near the Mosaic District, marked crosswalk only on the western side of Eskridge/Merrilee.

You’re reading and Fairfax County’s guide are the same, just with marked/unmarked vs implicit/marked/explicit?? Any intersection allows for legal foot-traffic

Where intersections contain no marked crosswalks, pedestrians shall not be guilty of negligence as a matter of law for crossing at any such intersection or between intersections when crossing by the most direct route.

[Subby]

Basic lesson here should be: do not accelerate through crosswalks. Ever.

[Author]

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