Bad LBS culture or just no understanding of business?

[Dirt]

You make some good points, sir. In a way what people are trying to do when you’ve talked to them, is to draw on their experience to get you what might work for you based upon what they’ve got to offer. The sales person’s experience may not be broad or they may not have spent time in your shoes (figuratively speaking, of course) in a while.

There are some very valid reasons for not upgrading a department store bike. The money put into upgrading doesn’t get great returns in performance. At some point a critical component will likely fail that could leave you with a useless bike that you’ve spent quite a bit of money on. There’s lots, lots more.

There are some equally valid reasons for upgrading a department store bike. The $ just isn’t there for anything else. Wow I’ve been there! New bikes are magnets for thieves. Some folks really just love recycling.

There are some places that might be good to start with. Phoenix Bikes in Arlington comes to mind right away. http://www.phoenixbikes.org/

Hopefully you find a shop that can listen and have a good exchange with you on what works best for you. I hope that helps a little.

Good luck!

Pete

[Certifried]

When I first got in to longer distance cycling (more than just 5 to 10 miles), I was lucky and picked up a mid level Specialized. My neighbor, who was getting in to the cycling with me, picked up a department store bike. On our VERY FIRST ride out, his crank spun off. Something to do with not having left-handed threads on one side of the crank, which keeps the side that is spinning the opposite direction of the threads from spinning off. He tried to spin the crank back on, but it would spin right back off when he pedaled.

There are interesting discussions that can happen at times over whether a department store bike is something that will work as a commuter/touring bike over long distance. There’s a pretty cool blog about someone that does exactly that. I believe, however, that the majority opinion is that department store bikes are well Target-ed (hah!) at the “casual” cyclist, someone who doesn’t bike more than a mile or two. The components, while might be brand name, are the cheapest they can possibly be made. Bike shops see this all the time, most won’t even touch a department store bike and for very good reason. After you sink a few hundred dollars in to it, trying to make it commute-worthy, only to have something (like a frame) completely fail they’ll take the brunt of your anger because you can’t just walk over to China and yell at them. I believe the bike shop was trying to do you a service so you don’t end up spinning your crank off 15 miles from home. Cranking home with just one crank is difficult to do (especially if you have a buddy laughing at you the entire way… wish I had a picture, it was classic!).

[baiskeli]

Try Bikenetic bike shop in Falls Church.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/bikenetic-full-service-bicycle-shop-falls-church

[TwoWheelsDC]

I’ve definitely experienced the same things you have when purchasing a bike…LBS workers all too often aren’t particularly well-adapted to working with the less “bikey” types that have started flooding shops as cycling has gained in popularity. In that way, I actually empathize with them, since they have to deal with a lot of customers who aren’t particularly well-informed about what they’re shopping for (that’s not meant as a knock or anything) and may not fully understand the differences between the products at the LBS and those at Target…after all, Target sells the same food/toiletries/clothes/whatever as any other store, so why would your average bike shopper think that bikes would be any different?

To put it another way, think of a car dealership. Most car buyers don’t have much in-depth knowledge of cars, but they generally know what kind of car will suit their needs. Most buyers these days also know that the days of “lemons” are largely gone, and the primary difference between a $15,000 Fiat and $35,000 Inifinti is amenities, luxury appointments, and brand cache. But from a practical perspective, any new car will get you from point A to point B reliably regardless of price, so people can just buy whatever car is in their price/need range and not worry about the details. Electronics are the same way. In the bike world, however, this is most definitely not true and the big price differences between big box bikes and LBS bikes are generally indicative of major differences in quality/reliability, so consumers in the bike world need to be much more educated about their purchases and have a better idea of what their money will get them.

All this is not to excuse bike shops’ poor customer service, but I think buyers will have much better experiences if they go into it with a little more preparation than most other purchases. Bike shops need to meet customers halfway here as well and, like you said, build trust with their customers…particularly those that are new to cycling.

I certainly encourage you to hold the LBSs to account for their lackluster customer service, but I’d also recommend against being too much of a blank slate when going into an LBS…rather than relying on them to tell you what they think you need, try to go in with specific criteria and let them show you what they have that fits into it. And if you decide to just upgrade, be very upfront with them about your intentions and again, be very specific about what you want. It’s going to take some work on your part, but I think you’ll find you have a much better experience that way.

[Dirt]

@baiskeli 33815 wrote:

Try Bikenetic bike shop in Falls Church.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/bikenetic-full-service-bicycle-shop-falls-church

Amen!

[KelOnWheels]

Learn to ask the right questions to know what to sell me.
Educate me about what I already have and what’s possible with it. Encourage me to try what I want to try and assure me that you’ll be there to advise and help/service when I want/need it. Be a friend, like the local volunteer bike clinics, and online forums do.

Great post!

It’s so important in any specialized retail environment to keep in mind that customer education is key.

I used to manage a knitting store, and a lot of what we did with new customers was educating them on the difference between what we sold and what they could find at their local big-box hobby store. If someone’s only ever seen $5 skeins of acrylic yarn, coming into a boutique shop and seeing $50 skeins of organic hand-dyed merino wool is a shock.

Most customers need an entry point into higher-end materials – they aren’t ready to buy the $12K Pinarello yarn, and may never be ready for that, but they may be ready to go for the $399 Public urban cruiser yarn option if we take the time to ask what their current experience level is, what kind of crafting they want to do or learn to do, and where they want to go with it. (OK, I’m mixing my yarn up with my bikes, but you get my point )

While customers should educate themselves as much as possible, there is a starting point of competence where you don’t know what you don’t know – you aren’t ready for self-education because you have no idea what you need to educate yourself about. If LYSs or LBSs want to make new customers, they need to give people that first step up so that they can develop into an educated crafter/cyclist/consumer.

And maybe even with the first step, the customer isn’t ready or doesn’t have the funds to buy right now – while you can’t give away the store for free there are still ways to keep that customer engaged and part of the store’s community so that when they are ready, they’ll be in your store and not someone else’s.

I’m reminded of the experience I had not too long ago walking into the LBS that’s closest to where I live to take a look at their steel touring bikes. First thing the salesman did was inform me that my helmet was old and I should buy a new one (it was new.) Second thing he did was to tell me I wouldn’t fit on a touring bike (really? not one single touring bike in the WHOLE WORLD?) and show me a bunch of aluminum road bikes that I didn’t want to look at. There’s a reason I don’t call that shop “my” LBS. I don’t think I’m their kind of customer.

[khanb1]

@TwoWheelsDC 33816 wrote:

I certainly encourage you to hold the LBSs to account for their lackluster customer service, but I’d also recommend against being too much of a blank slate when going into an LBS…rather than relying on them to tell you what they think you need, try to go in with specific criteria and let them show you what they have that fits into it. And if you decide to just upgrade, be very upfront with them about your intentions and again, be very specific about what you want. It’s going to take some work on your part, but I think you’ll find you have a much better experience that way.

I agree. From a retailer POV, the best customer is an educated customer. However, the layman doesn’t understand that a bike purchase can become highly involved in terms of having knowledge. Most people (like myself) who are getting into bikes know what they knew as children – that there are 2 types of bikes. Flimsy uncomfortable (and expensive) road bikes and durable (affordable) mountain bikes.

I believe it should be standard operating procedure for a bike retailer/shop to first qualify any prospects. A simple series of questions like:

• welcome to “joe’s bike shack”. Is this your first time visiting?
• welcome or welcome back! what can I do you for?
• What bike do you ride? — this is where product knowledge of bikes is key for the LBS person qualify what direction to take the questioning

If it turns out that the person is a dept store biker looking to get more into biking – before selling them on anything other than what they came to the store for (ie new tires), they should give a primer or perhaps recommendation on resources to quickly get up to speed on bikes so they can get a better understanding of what they’d want.

Fortunately for myself, If I get interested in something, I’ll pick up the top 3-5 books on the subject and spend the next month reading, researching, and experimenting. However – most people don’t operate that way and thus would be helpful for them to gain some guidance.

I admit that I may come off as “stubborn” in terms of wanting to do what I want to do – Such as upgrade a dept store bike with some components to a cost that’s more than what the original owner bought the bike for. From my point of view, I’ll spend maybe $300 upgrading my bike over a period of 3-4 months until I’m ready to purchase a “real” bike for $700+.

For me, those initial 3-4 months is getting a clear understanding of what I want so that when I am ready pull out my credit card I’m an educated customer. All I ask is for the LBS to be there for me during my learning process.

That’s reasonable, right?

[mstone]

Electronics at big box stores are the same as bikes or yarn. Walmart has its own models from the big name manufacturers, which are down-spec’d to a price point. Just like anything else, you need a certain level of expertise in the field to understand what was cut from one tv vs another.

I agree that upgrading a cheap bike probably isn’t worth it, and an ethical bike shop will be leery. If you’re dead set on doing it you’ll need to make it very clear to them that you intend to buy a few hundred dollars worth of stuff, throw it out in a few months, and not blame them. They’ll still probably be leery because it would be more cost effective to buy multiple bikes and sell the ones you don’t like. (There would be more residual value.)

Frankly it sounds like you’re going in, saying “give me a rock” and then telling them it’s the wrong rock. You either need to be a lot more specific or take some of the advice as-is.

Note that I say this as someone who hasn’t found an LBS he really likes. (Bikenetic is on my list to try but I haven’t gotten there yet.) It just seems like you’re not even giving them a chance to succeed.

[mstone]

Oh, and remember that most places are hesitant to spend too much time on first timers these days because it’s all too common for them to burn a couple of hours of staff time doing research for an internet purchase.

[Certifried]

@khanb1 33819 wrote:

I admit that I may come off as “stubborn” in terms of wanting to do what I want to do – Such as upgrade a dept store bike with some components to a cost that’s more than what the original owner bought the bike for. From my point of view, I’ll spend maybe $300 upgrading my bike over a period of 3-4 months until I’m ready to purchase a “real” bike for $700+.

This is what I mentioned, they see this all. the. time. It’s a waste of $300 in many people’s opinions (including mine). That doesn’t mean it won’t work out for you, do what makes YOU happy! The other part is that a LBS just might not have ANY parts that will fit that bike, at all. Bike parts are quite specific, I love my LBS, but they can’t fix a spoke for me if I break one. They don’t sell Specialized, and my rims have specific spokes that they don’t carry. So I have to go where I bought it, which is a nice little LBS but isn’t as friendly or knowledgeable as “my” LBS. So upgrading the brakes, for example, on your mountain bike isn’t as simple as changing an oil filter in your car. Wal-mart might have an oil filter for a geo metro, but they won’t have one for a ferrari. A LBS just simply won’t have brakes to fit that bike. From what I’ve read about upgrading department store bikes, you might as well just burn that $300. I’ll also note that for $300, you could find an excellent commuter bike that will suit your needs and will hold up well. Phoenix bikes has already been mentioned.

[Certifried]

I’d be remiss if I didn’t link some educational information for you, so I linked some good ones below.

I also know what this sounds like. This is kind of like someone walking in to your house, looking at the carpet that you picked out and are very proud of, only to have someone track mud all over it and saying, “oh, sorry, I thought it was already dirty. Who picked out THAT color?!”. I’m not bashing your bike or your decision of what to do with it, so please don’t take all of this that way. I think we’re all really interested in helping you out getting in to this passion of ours.

Sheldon Brown is considered, by many, to have been THE bike guru (may he rest in peace)
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_da-o.html#department

An excellent article reference/quote/plagiarism about why department store bikes are not bargains
http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-corner/beginners-dept-store-bikes-30921.html

consumer reports:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/bikes/buying-guide.htm?pn=0

another excellent article with an experienced viewpoint
http://rayslifecycle.blogspot.com/2010/04/walmart-bicycle-vs-bike-shop-bicycle.html

[dasgeh]

I admit, many LBSs are disappointing. But reading your letter, I’m concerned that had the LBS actually sold you upgrades for your department store bike, you’d be writing in a month later saying “thanks for taking my $200 and throwing it down the drain”. You may consider investing in some upgrades that can be used on other bikes (lights, seat/saddle (though these don’t always transfer to new bikes), bags), but from all the things you’ve written, it sounds like you’re in the market for a new bike in the foreseeable future. If you’re saving $100/month, you’re only a few months away from having the savings pay for a new bike. Once you’ve ridden a bike that really fits you, with a good seat and panniers to get that weight off your back, you’ll never understand how you made do with that old bike. I predict that you’ll be glad the LBS didn’t take your money to upgrade the bike you have now, at least in ways that wouldn’t transfer to the new bike.

[Tim Kelley]

A few more links for reading on “Bike Shaped Objects”

http://thinkpurpose.com/2012/04/07/bicycle-shaped-object/

http://southcoastbikes.co.uk/articles.asp?article=NO_BSO

http://www.commutebybike.com/2007/03/30/commuting-101-bike-shaped-objects/

For as much as you might like tinkering and experimenting, you’d probably love volunteering at Phoenix Bikes. They get you up and running with the knowledge of how to make repairs/upgrades and will even have a selection of bikes and parts to choose from.

Good luck!

[Greenbelt]

I think the Mount Rainer MD bike coop also welcome tinkerers.

I wrote up a “what to expect when you visit the bike shop” for my LBS a while back. It’s sort of targeted for newbies, but that was the point:
http://www.proteusbicycles.com/testing-bikes/

[khanb1]

@dasgeh 33826 wrote:

I admit, many LBSs are disappointing. But reading your letter, I’m concerned that had the LBS actually sold you upgrades for your department store bike, you’d be writing in a month later saying “thanks for taking my $200 and throwing it down the drain”. You may consider investing in some upgrades that can be used on other bikes (lights, seat/saddle (though these don’t always transfer to new bikes), bags), but from all the things you’ve written, it sounds like you’re in the market for a new bike in the foreseeable future. If you’re saving $100/month, you’re only a few months away from having the savings pay for a new bike. Once you’ve ridden a bike that really fits you, with a good seat and panniers to get that weight off your back, you’ll never understand how you made do with that old bike. I predict that you’ll be glad the LBS didn’t take your money to upgrade the bike you have now, at least in ways that wouldn’t transfer to the new bike.

I never felt that $200-$300 in upgrades and accessories was a big deal. In fact I thought it was completely appropriate.

Here’s what I spent:

• $130 Tune Up + Road Friendly Tires (first LBS kinda wined about my bike)
• $60 Comfortable saddle (something I can take with me to another bike)
• $45 Real wheel truing (2nd LBS wined about my bike)
• $15 new rear brake pads
• $25 tool kit (will use regardless of bike)
• $60 padded bike shorts + windbreaker (will use regardless of bike)

That totals: $335

I’m also considering maybe upgrading the chain ring (go from 42t to 50t large ring) and crank (go from 165mm to 175mm). It may cost an additional $100 to purchase online and install locally.

How have I mitigated the risk of “losing” that $335?

• I estimate I’d make back in savings in 3 months from metro fees riding 2x a week. The way I see it, I probably would have still spent close to $200 if I bought a new/used performance bike.
• Some upgrade I can carry over to other bikes.
• Assuming I decide to buy a new bike before I make back my “investment” of $335, in my mind, I’ll “write it off” as the cost of educating myself on cycling. I’ve spent well above that on past interests and passions.
• Assuming the bike is still in good riding condition after 3 months I can give it to someone who wants it. In my case, my wife (who finds it more comfortable than the vintage one she got off craig’s list) or my sister (who bought it originally, but stopped writing it b/c it needed some TLC).

[Author]

Posts