As Traffic Deaths Rise, D.C. Officials Propose More Bike Lanes And Slower Speed Limit

[peterw_diy]

@accordioneur 182136 wrote:

20 MPH is unrealistic. No one will adhere to it, even with serious enforcement. Better to enforce existing speed limits and keep people off their phones while driving.

A posted limit of 20 means enforcement at 30, which sure beats enforcing at 35.

[rcannon100]

…enforcement…

[mstone]

@jabberwocky 182170 wrote:

I’ve commented a few times before that I’ll take a driver going 30 and paying attention over one going 20 and not any day of the week.

Sure, but that isn’t an option that’s on the table.

[SpaceJockey]

@rcannon100 182173 wrote:

Exactly, the insta-ticket camera system is used only as a means of revenue for inflated DC local government. Perfect example: the tunnel under Washington Circle which has ZERO bike or pedestrian traffic, but you will get hit for $150 if you go any faster than 25mph….right after a downhill.

[mstone]

@SpaceJockey 182186 wrote:

Exactly, the insta-ticket camera system is used only as a means of revenue for inflated DC local government. Perfect example: the tunnel under Washington Circle which has ZERO bike or pedestrian traffic, but you will get hit for $150 if you go any faster than 25mph….right after a downhill.

blah blah blah. this is exactly the problem. I’d love to see speed cameras on every block, but the pushback is so bad that it’s impossible. so, reducing speeds is also not really on the table. (until we get self-driving cars; this is the only way I can see getting to vision zero–removing the humans.)

[lordofthemark]

@SpaceJockey 182186 wrote:

Exactly, the insta-ticket camera system is used only as a means of revenue for inflated DC local government. Perfect example: the tunnel under Washington Circle which has ZERO bike or pedestrian traffic, but you will get hit for $150 if you go any faster than 25mph….right after a downhill.

1. There is evidence that ATE has helped reduce collisions

2. I am all for repositioning cameras to focus more on bike/ped safety, though I would point out that I want to be safe when I drive as well. I have seen people complain about speed cameras on I395 where it enters DC from Virginia – a mess of lane changing, that seems quite dangerous to me.

3. I would be happy if they dedicated camera revenue to bike/ped improvements, or just rebated it to residents in some form – if only to disarm this argument. But I don’t vote in DC, so I have no say.

4. I can certainly tell you I that I have advocated for easing the limits on cameras in Va, so we can have speed cameras in Alexandria – and I know of places in Fairfax where residents wanted them. None of the people involved was motivated by revenue.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 182185 wrote:

Sure, but that isn’t an option that’s on the table.

Lane diets, at least, appear to effect attention. I know the first analysis of the effect of King Street Bike Lanes phase 1 (Janneys to the Cedar) showed a reduction in collisions, but almost no reduction in speed. Which suggested to me that the reduction in collisions was caused by drivers paying more attention. People who don’t like lane diets often complain “it makes me so nervous driving there” – that is the point, to keep drivers from relaxing and zoning out.

[Crickey7]

@SpaceJockey 182186 wrote:

Exactly, the insta-ticket camera system is used only as a means of revenue for inflated DC local government. Perfect example: the tunnel under Washington Circle which has ZERO bike or pedestrian traffic, but you will get hit for $150 if you go any faster than 25mph….right after a downhill.

I see dozens of cyclists ride that route under Washington Circle everyday. Many days, I’m among them. And that was a great spot for traffic cameras. People use to routinely hit 50 mph or higher on a short stretch of road that has multiple pedestrian crossings.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 182189 wrote:

Lane diets, at least, appear to effect attention. I know the first analysis of the effect of King Street Bike Lanes phase 1 (Janneys to the Cedar) showed a reduction in collisions, but almost no reduction in speed. Which suggested to me that the reduction in collisions was caused by drivers paying more attention. People who don’t like lane diets often complain “it makes me so nervous driving there” – that is the point, to keep drivers from relaxing and zoning out.

across-the-board lane diets aren’t an option because of the fire truck lobby, among others. vdot is incredibly resistant to narrowing lanes. some of this, I suspect, is because lane diets generally *do* reduce speeds–people don’t go as far over the speed limit if the road doesn’t look like an expressway. this, of course, affects the only metrics vdot cares about (vehicle level of service). and, you can’t get a high LOS if drivers aren’t comfortable. (seriously, it’s part of the standard: pedestrians can fear for their lives, but if drivers are comfortable that road’s an A.)

[SpaceJockey]

@lordofthemark 182188 wrote:

1. There is evidence that ATE has helped reduce collisions

2. I am all for repositioning cameras to focus more on bike/ped safety, though I would point out that I want to be safe when I drive as well. I have seen people complain about speed cameras on I395 where it enters DC from Virginia – a mess of lane changing, that seems quite dangerous to me.

3. I would be happy if they dedicated camera revenue to bike/ped improvements, or just rebated it to residents in some form – if only to disarm this argument. But I don’t vote in DC, so I have no say.

4. I can certainly tell you I that I have advocated for easing the limits on cameras in Va, so we can have speed cameras in Alexandria – and I know of places in Fairfax where residents wanted them. None of the people involved was motivated by revenue.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the point of assuring bike/ped safety, and I understand the honest good intentions of those that wish to implement those systems, but I am hesitant to propose that such enforcement systems be automated. Furthermore, I believe there should be very high standards imposed on case-by-case basis for their implementation, complete with comprehensive impact statement as determined by engineers.

My brainstorm of a few potential issues:
1) impact to other intersections,
2) driver aggression levels when they have 5 fewer minutes to get their child from daycare,
3) the fact that bikes are always 1/10th the mass of a car at minimum regardless of what the law says (except the law of gross tonnage),
4) the existence of an ATE at Washington Circle that serves no public safety purpose for any of traffic/bikers/peds,
5) that once legislated into existence is unlikely to go away even with advances in automated braking systems and autonomous vehicles or with other positive changes to local infrastructure, and
6) if we can implement ATE’s will we be more accepting of its moral arguments, hire fewer police officers, and double-down by imposing automated fines on pedestrians and bikers as well? Should every bike that crosses into the box when red, or blows through a stop sign, or rides on the sidewalk also get a $150 penalty in their mailbox? The intriguing caveat as well is that the more effective the enforcement, the fewer the number of lawbreakers, the fewer the number of fines, the less need there is to maintain the law enforcement apparatus…..Thus it is a quasi-stable system that requires continual correction via good judgement, and I believe we need to keep humans in that loop to be an interface with the humans who are paying into the system and for whose behavior we wish to correct.

To the argument of revenues, the chair of the state retirement board for Virginia was the highest-paid public service employee in the nation with exception to the state college football coaches, his job being only to serve other state employees, “give them an inch……”

[jrenaut]

I seriously doubt Mayor Bowser’s resolve to actually follow through on any of this stuff that might actually inconvenience drivers.

[huskerdont]

I’m always skeptical, but there is an upcoming “Traffic Safely Blitz” using a “Bike Force.” A one-time PR blitz in one place won’t do much, of course.

https://www.popville.com/2018/10/space-force-joke-opportunity/#more-212249

[mstone]

@huskerdont 182221 wrote:

I’m always skeptical, but there is an upcoming “Traffic Safely Blitz” using a “Bike Force.” A one-time PR blitz in one place won’t do much, of course

If they actually get some employees out of cars it could be huge.

[baiskeli]

The revenue thing is a (typical) red herring. If a camera or ticketing helps safety in a given situation, good. If it doesn’t, okay, put it where it will. But if the camera or tickets happen to make money in the process, that’s fine with me. It’s a tax on scofflaws.

[Author]

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