Army-Navy Drive losing a bit of the bike lane?

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 166209 wrote:

Yes you are eliminating something. You are eliminating the “door zone” bike lane and “forcing” me to ride in the new, narrower traffic lanes! Since I can’t cruise at 25 mph, this means that cars can no longer pass me while staying in the lane. This tends to piss drivers off (although that seems to be the goal of a lot of cycling behavior–i.e. shoaling cars at red lights). Personally, I don’t like to piss drivers off and view transportation as a cooperative effort to get everyone where they want to go. Veitch is one lane in each direction and if I am in the narrow travel lane, it means cars cannot legally pass me at all. Drivers also tend to resent cyclist taking the lane when they see a piece of parallel bicycle infrastructure.

Personally, I won’t let MY kids ride in protected bike lanes. They are simply too dangerous, particularly at intersections. They are the moral equivalent of sidewalks with the same issues. I don’t think my kids have a sufficient understanding of traffic patterns to know how to deal these situations.

Well since cars are required in Va to give 3 ft when passing, and a bike is at least, what, 2 feet wide, and most motor vehicles at least 6 feet wide, I think in an 11 ft travel lane no cars can pass you legally (edit – in lane), and in a 12 ft wide lane an awful lot (most? almost all?) vehicles can’t pass you legally (and if there is one truck or bus or very wide SUV behind you, all the Priuses and minicars will be stuck behind that).

Now the reality is that some riders are comfortable being passed illegally, so I grant you that. As I said, its hard to satisfy all our constituencies, which is why we have to focus on the more likely pathes to safety and greater biking numbers.

[lordofthemark]

@streetsmarts 166211 wrote:

I like your thinking here Dismal.

I have wondered recently about (something I’ve done) shoaling/passing to the front of cars at red lights. What do you all do? If streets are full and you’re on a bike, do you use your “bike privilege” and ride in between lanes or on the right (door zone) to get to the head of the crowd, or just wait a few light cycles like all the cars.(I was biking to Gallery Place after work…btw don’t do it!..and had this dilemma recently. The traffic was not moving).

I believe I squeezed by on the right of some cara but still was held up by some turning right but waiting for peds.

Maybe I should have sat at the back of all the cars and waited like a car?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I only shoal around if there is a bike lane coming up, or if I am close to a right turn, where I am going to get out of everyone’s way. Otherwise I wait in line behind the cars. I have even waited in line in places in DC where a Leading Pedestrian Interval would have let me go out ahead legally. On G Street the other day, approach the right turn onto 4th SE, I waited for one light cycle, because the filter to the right looked unsafe because of what the cars were doing, but then filtered to the right turn (onto the bike lane) at the next light cycle. I think filtering can be done appropriately in ways that improve traffic flow, though some riders do it rudely.

So er yeah, if you are going to be a vehicle be a damned vehicle. Wait in line. Take the lane. Do something else (like shoaling, or staying to the right) ONLY when its safe AND helps the flow of traffic ( generally assume that going to the right on a lane less than about 14 ft is NOT safe, so I try really hard to not do it though I see a lot of riders who do, and again, I try to only shoal/filter where I think it helps others, not just me)

And yes, I will do things for the sake of optics. I will yield to jaywalking peds. With a flourish. I have tried lately to be more careful about yielding ROW correctly at four way stops, even after I have stopped (so the issue is not safety, but rudeness). I refrain from Idahoing almost all reds, even in circumstances where many cautious riders would Idaho them. But avoiding taking the lane and riding to the right in a 12 ft travel lane, which is not legally required and is not safer, is something I will not do for optics. (note, if there is a great alt I will do that – on Boundary Channel Drive when riding by myself I will usually take the sidepath which IMO is quite safe unless there are peds, and I am willing to yield and slow for them, rather than ride in the narrow general travel lane – if I were faster I might make a different choice, and when riding with a convoy I generally do)

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 166209 wrote:

Drivers also tend to resent cyclist taking the lane when they see a piece of parallel bicycle infrastructure.

Well I don’t when I am driving, because I ride. My wife doesn’t when she is driving, because she has heard my lectures, poor soul That again is one reason critical mass of riders is important

[lordofthemark]

Here is the NACTO guide to vehicle widths

https://nacto.org/publication/transit-street-design-guide/transit-lanes-transitways/lane-design-controls/vehicle-widths-buffers/

They assume a mid size car is 6 and a half feet wide, mirror edge to mirror edge. A cyclist is 2 and a half feet. Allowing 2 and a half feet buffer for the bike, means a lane needs to be 11 feet wide for passing in lane. Assuming 3 feet buffer, or a larger motor vehicle (box trucks are assumed to be 8 ft wide) at least 12 ft are needed.

Note, some drivers like to scoot partway across the yellow line, but not all the way across. I guess not everyone is agreed if that is a rational or safe approach.

[komorebi]

@streetsmarts 166211 wrote:

I have wondered recently about (something I’ve done) shoaling/passing to the front of cars at red lights. What do you all do?

Like LOTM, I rarely filter around cars. I dislike biking in the door zone, and if the stopped cars get the green light and start moving while I’m still filtering forward, that makes me really uncomfortable. So yes, I generally take the lane and wait in line.

The one situation where I will filter forward is if there’s a lengthy Leading Pedestrian Interval that’ll allow me to get ahead of traffic (e.g., on Madison Dr. crossing 14th St., heading toward the NMAAH). If the LPI is only a few seconds, I won’t bother.

I also plan out my routes to maximize the use of streets with bike lanes, even if that means taking a more circuitous route. In extreme situations when the traffic is totally jammed up, I’ll hop up on the sidewalk — riding my bike slowly (and yielding to peds) where it’s legal to ride, and walking my bike otherwise.

[Judd]

@streetsmarts 166211 wrote:

I like your thinking here Dismal.

I have wondered recently about (something I’ve done) shoaling/passing to the front of cars at red lights. What do you all do? If streets are full and you’re on a bike, do you use your “bike privilege” and ride in between lanes or on the right (door zone) to get to the head of the crowd, or just wait a few light cycles like all the cars.(I was biking to Gallery Place after work…btw don’t do it!..and had this dilemma recently. The traffic was not moving).

I believe I squeezed by on the right of some cara but still was held up by some turning right but waiting for peds.

Maybe I should have sat at the back of all the cars and waited like a car?

You shouldn’t filter. Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.

[Judd]

@komorebi 166224 wrote:

Like LOTM, I rarely filter around cars. I dislike biking in the door zone, and if the stopped cars get the green light and start moving while I’m still filtering forward, that makes me really uncomfortable. So yes, I generally take the lane and wait in line.

The one situation where I will filter forward is if there’s a lengthy Leading Pedestrian Interval that’ll allow me to get ahead of traffic (e.g., on Madison Dr. crossing 14th St., heading toward the NMAAH). If the LPI is only a few seconds, I won’t bother.

I also plan out my routes to maximize the use of streets with bike lanes, even if that means taking a more circuitous route. In extreme situations when the traffic is totally jammed up, I’ll hop up on the sidewalk — riding my bike slowly (and yielding to peds) where it’s legal to ride, and walking my bike otherwise.

I told Komorebi to say all of this stuff.

[dasgeh]

@streetsmarts 166211 wrote:

I have wondered recently about (something I’ve done) shoaling/passing to the front of cars at red lights. What do you all do?

As I’m sure you’ve figured out by now, we call this “filtering”. I generally filter, as long as it’s safe.

(1) It’s legal.

(2) It helps the overall flow of traffic — more people get through the intersection faster if cyclists filter. Do I, as a cyclist, benefit more than folks in cars? Yep, I do. But I’m also the one in the small vehicle, while the ones who benefit less are the ones in the large vehicle. But people in cars benefit too, depending on where everyone is going, whether the lanes get wider or there’s a bike lane, whether there’s an LPI, etc. For example, I bike on Virginia Ave from 21 St NW daily. Westbound, I hit the light at E, a bit further west of which there’s a crosswalk. There are often people crossing at the crosswalk in bunches that are far enough apart for a bike to get through, but not a car (because bikes are smaller). So I filter at the light at E, and may slow the cars I filter who are turning right before the crosswalk slightly. But usually, cars are caught at the crosswalk, while I bike on, and turn L at G. Because I filtered, all the cars who were behind me pre-filter aren’t behind me once they start moving. And by the time they catch me, I’m often turning, so I slow no one.

(3) “when it’s safe” is important. I also don’t like to be caught in the door zone, so if I’m not confident I’ll get to the front before the green, I don’t filter. I’m sure there are other examples of where it’s not safe to filter.

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 166215 wrote:

They assume a mid size car is 6 and a half feet wide, mirror edge to mirror edge. A cyclist is 2 and a half feet. Allowing 2 and a half feet buffer for the bike, means a lane needs to be 11 feet wide for passing in lane. Assuming 3 feet buffer, or a larger motor vehicle (box trucks are assumed to be 8 ft wide) at least 12 ft are needed.

Those calcs seem to assume that the cyclist rides with the edge of the handlebars on the edge of the lane. That’s usually a stupid place to ride, because if you have to swerve, you can only swerve left. Given that most people ride at least a foot or two from the right-most edge of the lane and the 3 foot passing law, there are very few lanes in Arlington where a car can (legally, safely) pass within the lane.

[Judd]

@dasgeh 166235 wrote:

Those calcs seem to assume that the cyclist rides with the edge of the handlebars on the edge of the lane. That’s usually a stupid place to ride, because if you have to swerve, you can only swerve left. Given that most people ride at least a foot or two from the right-most edge of the lane and the 3 foot passing law, there are very few lanes in Arlington where a car can (legally, safely) pass within the lane.

Yep. Riding that close to the curb doesn’t allow enough space for you to maneuver if there’s some sort of unexpected road obstacle. In my experience, it also encourages cars to pass within the lane.

[lordofthemark]

Sigh. I wasn’t saying that people SHOULD ride to the right on a 12.5 foot lane (IE that cars could pass in lane on them). I was trying to show that even with assumptions favorable to cars being able to pass in lane, likely the lanes under discussion were not wide enough, pre lane diet. Making a conservative case for the lane diet, not a case against it. (but of course I think the real reason people feel comfortable riding to the right on 12 foot lanes is not because they think passing in lane is safe, but because they expect drivers to cross over the yellow line to pass, and think crossing over a couple of feet will be done more than crossing all the way over the yellow line if they take the lane.

[Steve O]

@Judd 166230 wrote:

You shouldn’t filter. Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.

Disagree. Cyclists fare best when they remember they are not actually driving an automobile and act accordingly. Often this means acting as though they are, but sometimes not (LPIs in DC being a prime example; riding on a wide shoulder being another).
Filtering is legal. It is one thing we people riding bikes can do that advantage us over cars, which already get almost all of the advantages. So when we get a tiny advantage that makes life better for us, we should take it.

“Fare” can mean both “be safe” or “be more convenient.” My not filtering makes me slower, so I fare worse in the second sense of the word.

I had virtually this same discussion with the WABA Education director last year. He got stuck in Georgetown traffic and was late for an event. At that time WABA had a staff directive to wait in line with the cars.

This is what I wrote:

Hi Doug,

I’ve been thinking about your quandary on M Street last Wednesday and the information about WABA’s staff policies.

I must say I strongly disagree with the policy of having WABA staff act differently than the law allows, for several reasons.

1 – Unless WABA supports the elimination of laws allowing lane splitting and filtering, then they must allow staff to do so. Imagine if anti-bike legislators, attempting to make life even harder for people riding bikes, learned that WABA’s policy was to not behave in ways that are perfectly legal (but those officials may not like). That would give them powerful ammunition to change the laws so that those behaviors are outlawed. How easy it would be for them to say, “Even the local bike advocacy organization doesn’t allow their own staff to do these things. Of course they should be illegal.” Ouch. That would hurt.

2 – Drivers already are confused about what people riding bikes may or may not do. The more people on bikes act consistently, the more drivers will come to expect it. Imagine you and I were both riding on M Street in Georgetown and you were wearing a WABA Staff jacket. If I were to legally filter, all the drivers around me would assume I was being a scofflaw, which works contrary to our efforts.

3 – It acquiesces to uneducated drivers. I don’t like the idea that because drivers are uneducated, that we have to somehow inconvenience ourselves to meet their expectations. This is essentially handing the power to decide what is correct and legal back to them—precisely the opposite of what we need to be doing.

4 – Once in a while, hopefully, a driver will see people riding bikes and will think, “Hmm, I could get where I am going better and faster if I rode a bike. There are circumstances where I would have a big advantage.” One of those is Goergetown. You or I on a bike can get across Georgetown in half the time or less than someone driving a car. But not if you sit there in line with all the cars. The biggest advantage of riding the bike is lost. And so is the opportunity for others to observe that advantage.

Thanks for listening. Feel free to share with your colleagues.

[lordofthemark]

Note I was not so much thinking of places where filtering helps me, and neither harms nor helps drivers. I am thinking of the polar cases of A. Filtering up to a right turn, or to a bike lane, where filtering helps me, but also helps traffic flow by pulling me as a vehicle out of the line of cars B. Where a rider is riding slower than other traffic in the lane as it moves (and is passed) , filters ahead when its stopped, then is passed all over again. AFAICT that does impede the smooth flow of traffic, and with little point. I suppose there are instances in between (especially for faster riders, or where other traffic is slower, so the rider is basically at the pace of the other traffic). I suppose its fair there to filter, though many of us find it uncomfortable.

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 166244 wrote:

Note I was not so much thinking of places where filtering helps me, and neither harms nor helps drivers. I am thinking of the polar cases of A. Filtering up to a right turn, or to a bike lane, where filtering helps me, but also helps traffic flow by pulling me as a vehicle out of the line of cars B. Where a rider is riding slower than other traffic in the lane as it moves (and is passed) , filters ahead when its stopped, then is passed all over again. AFAICT that does impede the smooth flow of traffic, and with little point. I suppose there are instances in between (especially for faster riders, or where other traffic is slower, so the rider is basically at the pace of the other traffic). I suppose its fair there to filter, though many of us find it uncomfortable.

To B. I don’t think it’s so clear cut that the situation describes does impede the smooth flow of traffic. And it certainly has a point.

To the flow of traffic – often a cyclist that filters can get up to speed in a way that has less impact on the flow of traffic – for example when there is a LPI or when the intersection is wide enough that the cyclist can accelerate in the right-most lane (that has parked cars or right-turning cars pre-intersection), then merge into traffic when he/she is up to speed. You can imagine many examples where the cars behind you get where they are going faster (e.g. when they are turning right, so you’re out of their way sooner) because you filtered.

Because you can’t know where are the cars around you are headed (in most situations), I think we should act in a way that gets the most people through an intersection in a cycle. Filtering is almost always the answer there.

To the point of filtering – see Steve O’s post — it makes cycling faster, which makes it more attractive, which is good for everyone because bikes take up less space when moving and when parked, do less damage to our roadways and environment, and are good for business, public health and community building (did I catch everything?). It can also be safer to filter, because it gets drivers’ attention, and, when paired with an LPI, allows bikes to get up to speed before interacting with cars.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 166249 wrote:

To B. I don’t think it’s so clear cut that the situation describes does impede the smooth flow of traffic. And it certainly has a point.

To the flow of traffic – often a cyclist that filters can get up to speed in a way that has less impact on the flow of traffic – for example when there is a LPI or when the intersection is wide enough that the cyclist can accelerate in the right-most lane (that has parked cars or right-turning cars pre-intersection), then merge into traffic when he/she is up to speed. You can imagine many examples where the cars behind you get where they are going faster (e.g. when they are turning right, so you’re out of their way sooner) because you filtered.

Because you can’t know where are the cars around you are headed (in most situations), I think we should act in a way that gets the most people through an intersection in a cycle. Filtering is almost always the answer there.

To the point of filtering – see Steve O’s post — it makes cycling faster, which makes it more attractive, which is good for everyone because bikes take up less space when moving and when parked, do less damage to our roadways and environment, and are good for business, public health and community building (did I catch everything?). It can also be safer to filter, because it gets drivers’ attention, and, when paired with an LPI, allows bikes to get up to speed before interacting with cars.

I am not trying to say its clear cut, judgement is needed, and different situations are different. But I think its hard to deny that there is SOME pointless shoaling going on.

As for the critical mass issue, I kind of suspect that few of the concerned but interested riders are going to be doing much filtering. Note also, I was not suggesting a change in law or policy wrt filtering, but responding to a question about safe and polite ways to ride.

As for Vietch, y’all had me confused. I see it already has HAD a lane diet – it has a buffered bike lane. A lot of the issue there, aside from protection from crazed swerving cars, is the benefit of putting cyclists to the right of the cars vs just to the left. Dismal knows all about dooring, and also how to swerve safely into the general travel lane when he has to (or I suppose at every intersection since he wants to be most visible) but a lot of newb cyclists are going to stay in that lane, and won’t even ride into the buffer to avoid door risks. (I go on the assumption that passenger side doors will open less frequently than driver side doors).

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