Armstrong fallout could extend to Olympic cycling??

[Dirt]

@SteveTheTech 40857 wrote:

I’ve got to say as a casual observer of this forum I really expected to see a thread about ole Lance earlier in the week. I am guessing everyone pretty much agrees about him now.

Lots of us are tired of it all. Anyone that rides a lot gets the water cooler questions a lot. I’m not sure how I manage to stay a fan of professional cycling. I’m still a fan though. I’m interested to see how it works out.

For the water cooler crowd, I usually try to have a different, off-beat answer for them when I get that usual questions. Honestly, the best answer to questions like that is to return a probing question that may help people to think more deeply, or have a more complex view of things. All of the conversations seem to end up with me saying what I always say… “I’m going for a bike ride!”. Ultimately that’s the best answer.

*Still on hold… waiting for Pat to answer the UCI Doping hotline.* Dayummmm… I gotta pee! “Your call is valuable to us… “

[PotomacCyclist]

No doubt that he has a lot to answer for in the cycling world. But I don’t think cancer victims were taken advantage of. Many continue to be grateful for all of the money that he brought in for cancer research over the years. As flawed as he is, the cancer fundraising was real.

I’m only following the story with moderate interest. As pointed out, cycling is not the only sport with a massive doping history. (Baseball. Football. Track and field.) And yeah, some other sports have doping problems plus thuggery problems, with off-the-field incidents of violent behavior and other criminal activity. Not just on the pro level too. It might be just a small percentage of football players getting involved in that stuff, but are, say, 5 percent of cyclists killing people in bar brawls, killing their spouses, getting arrested for domestic violence, etc.? Not that I’ve heard of.

At the risk of offending any Baltimore Ravens fans here, what about Ray Lewis? He is lionized as an NFL icon and a role model. But he still hasn’t explained what happened over a decade ago when his posse was involved in a nighttime brawl that led to the stabbing deaths of two people. What about players like Ben Roethlisberger, who appears to be a serial rapist? He has always been able to worm his way out of prosecution, but the incidents kept happening until he undertook PR damage control. Or Michael Vick? Or O.J. Simpson? It’s not the majority of football players, but these aren’t isolated incidents either.

On the doping front, baseball has a well-documented recent history of doping, including maybe the majority of the superstars over the last 30 years. (Hopefully most of the players have stopped doping. But stars like Manny Ramirez and Melky Cabrera have tested positive in recent years. So the problem has not gone away.) The baseball writers refused to vote in a single person to the Baseball Hall of Fame this winter, as a form of protest and a show of disapproval of the steroid era in baseball. (In earlier eras, stimulants were the main drug problem in baseball.) As for football, it’s almost like the game is no longer being played by human beings. An entire generation of players became massively bigger and stronger compared with pro players from a couple decades ago. Evolution doesn’t work quite that fast. But PEDs do. Many amateur cyclists and triathletes dope these days, but so do a lot of amateur football players. There hasn’t been much testing because it’s too expensive. But I remember reading about a survey many years ago, in which high-school athletes were asked to reply anonymously. Over half of the athletes admitted to doping! I don’t remember how large the survey was, but there have been other indications that some top prospects are indeed doping, to improve their chances of getting into a top college program and then obtaining a lucrative NFL deal.

So yeah, Armstrong doped. He has been punished severely. I’m not losing too much sleep about cycling being somehow worse than other sports. Maybe the UCI played a bigger role in covering it up than organizations in other sports did. But a lot of people have overlooked and covered up doping in other sports too. Doping is a serious problem. I just don’t happen to think that it is somehow exclusively a pro cycling problem.

[SteveTheTech]

@Dirt 40863 wrote:

*Still on hold… waiting for Pat to answer the UCI Doping hotline.* Dayummmm… I gotta pee! “Your call is valuable to us… “

+1 Internets to you sir, very funny.

@PotomacCyclist 40867 wrote:

No doubt that he has a lot to answer for in the cycling world. But I don’t think cancer victims were taken advantage of. Many continue to be grateful for all of the money that he brought in for cancer research over the years. As flawed as he is, the cancer fundraising was real.

I would not say he took advantage overtly but definitely instilled a good bit of false hope in many people facing the largest fight of their life. The money and recognition he raised for cancer in general cannot be taken from them (but if anyone were to try to figure out a way too…., it is clear he had no problem taking from honest cyclists, why not cancer patients?). It was inspiring to watch a clean cancer survivor dominate a field of dopers for many years.

@DaveK 40858 wrote:

I’m a pro cycling fan and I’m sick of the Lance question. I make it a point to follow the Lance question to NFL fans with “how many murderers and rapists DON’T we know about?”.

I am sick of the questions, I am more sick of Lance though. I do not care for liars and cheats in any realm of our society, especially those who are put on such a high pedestal. Just like with the NFL and their players who conduct themselves poorly in public we should have public outcry that leads to action, be it life time shunning from sport or financial penalties.Very few pro level athlete ever pay for their crimes and are often rewarded with very lucrative second chances, while members of the public sector are terminated for infidelity or a first offense on an otherwise stellar career(http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011-12-06/FAA-chief-resigns-after-drunken-driving-arrest/51680182/1), if he were a linebacker in the NFL he would have served a 4 or 5 game suspension (maybe) and have been allowed to return. It is on the fans of the sport to vote with their dollar and just not tolerate foolish and unsportsmanlike behavior, but we all know how that will go. With the return of hockey some would expect fans to boycott games or protest in other ways instead jersey sales go through the roof and people are back as if nothing happened.
I am a avid Patriots fan, a few years back they were caught cheating and walked off with a slap on the wrist. It is a shame, but I am glad we were able to get out of that with a little cash I guess it really depends where your dog in the fight is located.

I personally think Nicole Cooke sums it up nicely.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/16/cyclist-nicole-cooke-say-exactly-how-is
It is a shame that many of us have never heard of her or her accomplishments other than a quick blurb. She spent her entire career working clean and has very little to show for it. That really breaks my heart.

Just goes to show the honest guy (or gal) almost never wins in the long run.

[rcannon100]

Just goes to show the honest guy (or gal) almost never wins in the long run.

Ooooooooooooh that depends entirely on what you mean by wins. I wasnt going to respond to this thread because I dont care. 40 years ago when I started cycling I didnt know who Lance was. I dont cycle because some guy in spandex won a race on a mountain in some country across an ocean. I bike because I love to bike. Period.

I dont care for putting any people up on high pedestals. I have never understood the fascination of pop culture to know more about a complete stranger than about your friends or family. I heard someone say once that you can tell a lot about a person by walking into their home or office and looking at what pictures are on the walls. What pictures are on your walls? Are they pictures of complete strangers? Are they pictures of “Lance.” Or are they pictures of people you know and love. My office walls are covered by art work my kids did, as a result of a great teacher who lives in Arlington. Oh yeah and my agency’s BFB award.

I dont care about Lance because I have never cared about Lance (or Vick or Oprah or…). I am an honest guy, mostly. And looking back on my life, I think I have pretty much won. My favorite day is walking with my dogs and my family on the beach. I get to wake up every morning riding along the Potomac River, watching the sun rise over the Nations Capital. I have a good job. I live in the Socialist Republic of Northern Virginia (aka Bike Friendly Arlington). Life is good.

Now…. where to ride this weekend?

[creadinger]

@SteveTheTech 40892 wrote:

I am a avid Patriots fan, a few years back they were caught cheating and walked off with a slap on the wrist. It is a shame, but I am glad we were able to get out of that with a little cash I guess it really depends where your dog in the fight is located.

The Eagles should have won that Superbowl anyway, and I remind my Pats fan wife of spygate during that season (almost) everyday.

[Greenbelt]

CNN interviewed Anthony at the bike shop. I think he got it about right — after a point, some racers weren’t doping to win, they were just trying to keep their jobs and stay on the pro tour.

[Rod Smith]

@PotomacCyclist 40867 wrote:

No doubt that he has a lot to answer for in the cycling world. But I don’t think cancer victims were taken advantage of. Many continue to be grateful for all of the money that he brought in for cancer research over the years. As flawed as he is, the cancer fundraising was real.

I don’t believe any Livestrong funds went to cancer research.

[thucydides]

@Rod Smith 40921 wrote:

I don’t believe any Livestrong funds went to cancer research.

I’m always pretty loath to get into Lance threads but on Livestrong I’ll say a couple of things. They did at one time fund research. That stopped a couple of years ago and it was never a huge amount of money (relatively speaking). But there’s always been a perception out there that Livestrong is a research funder. I think that came about in part due to people simply assuming, in part due to journalistic laziness, in part due to the little bit of research funding they did (once) provide, in part due to the fact that Lance talks about research all the time, and in part, frankly and more cynically, because Lance and the Livestrong organization didn’t try to dispel the perception.

Lance did at one time spend a lot of time lobbying for more public funding of cancer research. Personally I think it makes little sense for a foundation like Livestrong to fund medical research. Cancer research is a highly specialized, high economies-of-scale, incredibly and increasingly sophisticated enterprise. Competently evaluating proposals (let alone overseeing and evaluating funded projects) requires a sort of expertise and infrastructure that’s really hard to create and maintain. In short, I personally think we’re way better off — that we get way more “bang for the buck” — by having medical research funded and overseen by NIH (and other comparable organizations around the world). Granted there are definite downsides to this approach, but overall it makes more sense. Therefore, in my view, Livestrong’s research focus should be on building more support for government funding of cancer research.

So what does Livestrong do? The problem is that it’s kind of hard to explain. Everyone understands, more or less, what we mean by research. Some of their efforts are directed towards helping cancer victims figure out insurance, figure out medical jargon, figure out treatment options, etc. In other words, they’re kind of a support organization for cancer victims and survivors in remission. I dealt with this part of the organization a little bit when my Mother had cancer and found them fairly useful. I’ve heard others with similar stories but also others who found Livestrong not so useful. In general I do think there’s a lot of good work being down out there by foundations that’s not about medical research. Ronald McDonald House is a great example.

The rest that Livestrong does seems to be more PR oriented. A lot of it is directed towards influencing public affairs. A lot of it is about that nebulous concept of “increasing cancer awareness.” I think potential donors really do need to think about whether these awareness campaigns (Komen as well) are that valuable. I’m a bit skeptical overall on that point.

Finally, there are, of course, real issues about Livestrong and it’s two variants (.org & .com) and various other conflict-of-interest issues involving Lance. These concerns are more than enough to keep me from contributing.

[PotomacCyclist]

I’ve never donated to Livestrong. Now I probably never will, although I would to other cancer-related charities. But I found it interesting to read an interview with one of the doctors who treated Armstrong for cancer in the 1990s. He is not a cycling fan and I don’t think he was a close Armstrong associate. He said that even after the USADA report, cancer patients continue to come into the hospital clutching copies of Lance’s books. For them, it has never been about the cycling. It is more about the fact that he is one of the best known cancer survivors. It’s a name they know. I’ve also read of some pro athletes in other sports who have lost relatives to cancer who have similar feelings about it. Obviously they don’t like it when other athletes cheat, because it threatens their livelihoods directly, but they still see Armstrong as a representative of cancer survivors. The life and death struggle takes precedence for many people over the issue of cheating in a professional sport.

I’m not supporting him here, just posting about his continuing effect and draw for people and families dealing with cancer. Though his sports career and sponsorship deals are in shambles, the cancer history could make him at least a little different from other recent stories like Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Marion Jones. I don’t think this should affect the decisions of the USADA, the IOC or the UCI. Just pointing out that his story will always be different from other prominent dopers because of the cancer, even in spite of his prickly personality. (Most people already knew he was a jerk, even when he was still widely admired.)

[mstone]

I think it is still inspirational to see that a cancer diagnosis doesn’t mean you’ve lost your chance to cheat, be a jerk, and make an obscene amount of money doing something that’s ultimately silly.

[PotomacCyclist]

For the cancer victims, they have a different perspective. It will change for some, but for others, it simply won’t. Cycling and sports play little part in their view of Armstrong. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. Just saying that that is the reality among many who face a life-threatening problem. I’m not saying Armstrong is a good guy either, but I am saying that a lot of people will overlook the cycling and lying because in their minds, he is the face of fighting cancer. They may not even have thought about Armstrong. They may have even hated him before. But when cancer strikes, he’s still the first person that many (most?) people think of. Will that be true in the future? I have no idea. But I don’t think he will disappear completely in the cancer world.

This is just a statement of what others observe, not a statement that this is good or bad or ideal or not ideal.

I also realize that this is a cycling forum and the emphasis is going to be on his cycling legacy, which will be negative obviously. For the cycling angle, I look at the 1999-2005 era the same way that I look at baseball from about the mid 1980s to recent years. Both sports had extensive doping problems. Championships and records were greatly influenced and determined by dopers. People can say that “everyone was doing it”, which isn’t a good excuse. But it does cloud the results of both sports in those eras. I will just look at all of it as quasi-official results, with a big asterisk.

I tend not to idolize sports figures, although I can admire many of them. I do recognize how important pro sports are to many people, especially children. The pro sports may seem silly, but you could say many things are silly (movies, paper pushing, novels) but those are important parts of modern society and culture.

In the end, Armstrong does not equal cycling and cycling does not equal Armstrong, although there was a time not long ago when that was close to being the case in the U.S. Many people were inspired to ride as amateurs because of Armstrong. That won’t go away because of his downfall. He destroyed some people’s lives like Emma O’Reilly and the Andreus. He will fade away in cycling and become a footnote in history. But his current impact remains large, for better or worse. I don’t think he’s a good person but there’s no doubt that his legacy and his overall impact is complicated.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/lopresti/2013/01/17/lance-armstrong-einhorn-cancer-doctor-oprah/1842777/

[vvill]

@PotomacCyclist 41043 wrote:

He will fade away in cycling and become a footnote in history. But his current impact remains large, for better or worse. I don’t think he’s a good person but there’s no doubt that his legacy and his overall impact is complicated.

Not sure he’ll ever be a footnote in history, more that there will always be footnotes about him. For now and the short-term future, there’ll be plenty of new sensational headlines and news for more media frenzies.

[Dirt]

His cup is half empty.

[creadinger]

Let’s not forget that this admission doesn’t change anything for most of the dedicated cyclists out there. We knew he doped. We knew he was the best doping cyclist amongst a bunch of doping cyclists in an era of rampant doping. I’m not quite sure why everyone in the media is acting so surprised or incredulous. This was the worst kept secret since Carrie Matheson from Homeland was declared insane.

The TdF or whoever vacated all of his wins are not going to name winners during those years because they know no one else deserves it. So Lance cheated. It’s not something I didn’t know 2 years ago. I think it’s still pretty cool that a 2 time cancer survivor was able to compete at the highest level of his sport. He wouldn’t have won all of those races had he not been an incredible athlete, doping or not.

In my opinion Lance isn’t a douche because he doped. Everyone else was doing it, why not go all out? He’s a douche because he bullied, harrassed, and sued all of those people who dared to question him or go public with the facts.

Livestrong? In my opinion there are better charities out there, much closer to my heart that do more to help cancer research and survivors. The Pan-Mass Challenge is one example. 100% of their funds (~$350,000,000 to date) actually goes to the Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston to fund research. Approximately $23,000 of which we helped raise to fund research for angiosarcoma, which is pretty much all I care about.

[Dirt]

I haven’t watched all of it yet, but what struck me from the whole thing is this: He admitted and confessed the stuff that he really is not able to deny because there’s direct, eye witness testimony from other credible witnesses. He dodged, skirted over and didn’t answer most of the bigger, more weighty issues. That tells me that this is a well-orchestrated public relations move designed to get him SOME level of credibility so that he has a leg to stand on when it comes to some of the later legal actions that are bound to come. Had he continued the deny, deny, deny that he was doing before, he would have obviously had zero cred because he was obviously lying about the obvious. Confess to some stuff to get credibility so that he can continue lying about some big stuff and maybe avoid some of the shit storm coming his way.

I’m happy he confessed. I’ve heard first-hand of the good that Livestrong does and like the organization. I don’t for a moment think that he’s feeling any sincere remorse for what he’s done.

Just my take on what I’ve seen.

Rock on! I love y’all.

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