Arlington BAC Meeting – June 1st

[dasgeh]

Agenda! Agenda! Hope to see everyone tonight. We will be missing both Dana and Megan tonight, so we need a note taker. I’m hoping someone will come prepared to type/write (I will literally have my hands full). Thanks.

7:00pm Call to Order; Introductions; Approve minutes Gillian

7:10pm ACPD Lt. Dennis

7:45pm

Arlington County Staff Updates

A. Parks

B. BikeArlington

C. Projects (50/Irving, Bluemont stop signs, Wilson in Courthouse)

8:15pm On-site with ArlCo staff: Clarendon Circle Chris Slatt

8:30pm Dooring-prevention stickers for taxis, Arlington County vehicles Gillian

8:45pm Issues to discuss with the County Manager Gillian

9:00pm Adjournment Gillian

[mstone]

@sjclaeys 117114 wrote:

I am surprised that so many want the rules set by what is convenient for inattentive and aggressive drivers. Oh well. Don’t really see the need for bike lanes then.

It’s actually less convenient and requires more attention to turn in two movements (merging into the bike lane first) than it is to hang a right and fly across the bike lane. It sounds like you’re torqued off about people driving along in the bike lane, which is not the same thing. Or you’re upset that you can’t sneak around a turning car–but that’s the entire point as it’s pretty unsafe to do so.

[scoot]

@Amalitza 117101 wrote:

@sjclaeys 117097 wrote:

2) Drive car to intersection, stop at intersection to the left of the bike lane with righthand turn signal waiting for signal to change or for a safe right on red. Second car pulls up to my right in the bike lane to also make right hand turn because in such a hurry. I’d like to hear how either situation is ok and safe.

Situation #2, if you had merged into the bike lane to wait for your right turn, the other car couldn’t have come up to your right like that. The problem wasn’t them using the bike lane, it’s that the two of you were doing it differently, and therefore unpredictable to each other.

Confusion on this issue may be partially attributable to the fact that not all laws in other states agree on this point. Most states have adopted California’s approach (e.g. “merge into bike lane before the intersection”), but Oregon (“don’t drive in the bike lane at all, yield to everyone while turning across it”) has a few followers as well. I cannot seem to find a reference that breaks this down state by state, but I’m pretty sure Virginia and DC are both in the California camp. IIUC, Virginia law includes bicycle lanes within its definition of roadway, and motorists should always merge into a right-hand bike lane before making a right turn.

IMO, the California method is far safer than the Oregon one. In drivers’ ed, I was taught to separate hazards so as not to have to confront them all simultaneously. A practical example: if I see a stopped car close to the edge on my side of a two-lane highway, plus an oncoming car on the other side of the road, I adjust my speed so that I do not pass both vehicles at the same time. Because doing so leaves no room for error or reaction in case a third potential hazard presents itself also. The same concept applies to turning across bike lanes. When turning, drivers already have many other directions to look at the intersection itself, to ensure that they do not endanger pedestrians. Checking behind and merging into the bike lane in advance means that there’s one less potential conflict at the intersection. If any bicycles then approach before the car has turned, they can safely go around to its left.

[scoot]

@mstone 117224 wrote:

It’s actually less convenient and requires more attention to turn in two movements (merging into the bike lane first) than it is to hang a right and fly across the bike lane.

Not only that, but turning from nearer to the curb necessitates a smaller turn radius and consequently a lower speed. People that turn from the middle of the roadway don’t have to slow down much to make it around a corner, and that’s dangerous for everybody.

[sjclaeys]

@mstone 117224 wrote:

It’s actually less convenient and requires more attention to turn in two movements (merging into the bike lane first) than it is to hang a right and fly across the bike lane. It sounds like you’re torqued off about people driving along in the bike lane, which is not the same thing. Or you’re upset that you can’t sneak around a turning car–but that’s the entire point as it’s pretty unsafe to do so.

@scoot 117229 wrote:

Not only that, but turning from nearer to the curb necessitates a smaller turn radius and consequently a lower speed. People that turn from the middle of the roadway don’t have to slow down much to make it around a corner, and that’s dangerous for everybody.

To try to clarify once again, the situation I am talking about is where there is a red light or stop sign, so the car should be stopping before making a right hand turn. So no, I am not “torqued off” about not being able to sneak around a turning car, nor talking about drivers making a right with a green light or an intersection without a stop sign. I am “torqued off” about cars driving in a bike lane with solid lines (which is different from crossing the bike lane to park). If that is allowable at an intersection, then why is it not allowable at any point along the road and, if that is the case, what is the point of having a bike lane? It was mentioned earlier that a driver turning right from a car lane rather than the bike lane might not see a cyclists to the right. Again, remember that I am talking about a car making a right after it has stopped at a red light or stop sign. While the driver should certainly look left for on-coming traffic, the driver should also look to their right in case of crossing pedestrians so the driver would see if there is a cyclist there also waiting at the red light or stop sign.

[mstone]

@sjclaeys 117244 wrote:

To try to clarify once again, the situation I am talking about is where there is a red light or stop sign, so the car should be stopping before making a right hand turn. So no, I am not “torqued off” about not being able to sneak around a turning car, nor talking about drivers making a right with a green light or an intersection without a stop sign. I am “torqued off” about cars driving in a bike lane with solid lines (which is different from crossing the bike lane to park). If that is allowable at an intersection, then why is it not allowable at any point along the road and, if that is the case, what is the point of having a bike lane? It was mentioned earlier that a driver turning right from a car lane rather than the bike lane might not see a cyclists to the right. Again, remember that I am talking about a car making a right after it has stopped at a red light or stop sign. While the driver should certainly look left for on-coming traffic, the driver should also look to their right in case of crossing pedestrians so the driver would see if there is a cyclist there also waiting at the red light or stop sign.

Your clarifications aren’t really helping this seem like anything but being mad about not being able to sneak around the car. If it’s stopped at a red light waiting to make a turn, why do you care whether you’re beside or behind it? You pull up behind the car, and when it’s turned you move up–what’s the big deal? The alternative would be for you to be beside it when it turns, possibly in a right hook situation depending on whether the light suddenly changes and you proceed. In answer to your repeated rhetorical, the “point of having a bike lane” is to make things safer for cyclists. Being right hooked is not safe. And cars should do this at any point along the road when they’re making a right turn (e.g., into a driveway) for exactly the same reason. As someone else pointed out, it’s not enough to say “he should look”–the goal should be to minimize the possibilities for conflict so there are fewer opportunities for costly mistakes. In this case it’s simple for the driver to remove one conflict, and doesn’t cost the cyclist anything at all.

[Steve O]

@sjclaeys 117244 wrote:

To try to clarify once again, the situation I am talking about is where there is a red light or stop sign, so the car should be stopping before making a right hand turn.

I have started a new thread specific to this issue to move it off the BAC thread.

[Author]

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