Are we just a bunch of whiners?

[sjclaeys]

Given the darkness and blind corners of the paths and many path users not using lights, I am not sure what “another strategy” would be as an alternative to using lights bright enough to cycle safely. Of course, they should be at the lowest level required, angled down and perhaps to the right, and not in strobe mode, but I do not see any other alternatives. I do have to say that I don’t agree with the cyclingeconomist having aerobars on a hybrid, but that is just my pet peeve about people using aerobars while on MUPs. I guess I just whined then, so I will stop.

[Mikey]

Or better yet, how about better lighting on the trails. The W&OD is dark in the morning, so is MVT, Custis and most streets have some overhead lighting. Improving this lighting would improve visibility and safety. Night time riders should still illuminate themselves, but perhaps infrastructure can solve some of this in particuarly dicey sections of the trail.

[Dirt]

One thing that I do is slow down a lot. I don’t mean that as an obnoxious comment… It is something I started doing a while back.

[thecyclingeconomist]

@dasgeh 30704 wrote:

The problem with your logic is that the drivers on a normal two-lane road have car-powered headlights of their own and the road probably has a fair amount of ambient lighting. On a trail, most people have weak lights, and the ambient lighting is usually low. Other trail-users’ eyes are not adjusted for bright light in the way that drivers’ are. So when you ride on a trail with very bright lights, you really are putting others in danger, because you are impairing their night vision for moments after you pass.

I completely understand the value you put on your safety. But your actions are putting others at risk (in a way it doesn’t seem you’ve been considering). Maybe it’s time to consider another strategy?

I get your point… but there are some problems with it too. Also, just to be specific, the “colorful” responses to which I was referring have never been at night from cyclists. Finally, the situation that you cite has occurred VERY rarely. There simply aren’t that many people out riding after dark. When I commute home after 8pm (when night-vision/contrast issues are a definite reality as you state), there are usually less than a dozen cyclists on the entire 6 mile section of the MVT I ride on.

As I have invested in legit lights for year-round use, I am not going to use inferior lights which make it so I can’t safely see my surroundings simply because others don’t have lights that properly light up their surroundings at night. As I said, I’m probably being stubborn on this, but with good reason. I attempt to maintain an 18-22mph avg. on the MVT when safe (yes, I ride for exercise…on every commute. I have a schedule, a goal heart rate, I do sprint intervals, leg-drops etc etc.) Low-powered lights simply do not come close to having enough penetration to make my field and depth of vision sufficient for a safe athletic ride. This is regardless of what other’s lights are like. (I also understand that it’s unfortunately a real investment to purchase a real lighting system. It took me years of slowly wasting money on 100 to 400ln producing lights, only to realize that I needed to buck up and put the money into a sufficient water-proof lighting system. One with a separate flood and spot, casting between 1000 and 2000 effective lumens depending upon the mode.)

I’ve heard it argued that this leads to the “SUV” situation (where everyone keeps buying larger and larger cars to remain safe from being hit by other’s on the road)… but the analogy isn’t appropriate either. I have my lighting system for solo night riding, and don’t “turn it up” because of others on the path/road. The problem arises because of the phenomenon we both allude to: other’s want me to turn my lights off/down. But, the only negativity I was referring to was during morning/daytime commutes when the contrast problem wasn’t an issue. As I said, I try to be cordial and cover them when safe, or turn them off… but when I forget, having the f-bomb thrown my way certainly seems way off-base (am I whining here??… hahaha)

I wouldn’t treat anyone/talk to anyone that way… in any situation. It doesn’t feed any possible conversation/solution… rather in incites anger and defensive posturing from all parties involved.

[thecyclingeconomist]

@Dirt 30711 wrote:

One thing that I do is slow down a lot. I don’t mean that as an obnoxious comment… It is something I started doing a while back.

As a father with a history of obesity, this is my opportunity to do cardio. I hate the gym, but I will keep my body in shape for not only my own well being, but for my family. I (fortunately or unfortunately) treat every ride as part of my physical training and maintain a schedule of hard rides/recovery etc.

@sjclaeys 30708 wrote:

Given the darkness and blind corners of the paths and many path users not using lights, I am not sure what “another strategy” would be as an alternative to using lights bright enough to cycle safely. Of course, they should be at the lowest level required, angled down and perhaps to the right, and not in strobe mode, but I do not see any other alternatives. I do have to say that I don’t agree with the cyclingeconomist having aerobars on a hybrid, but that is just my pet peeve about people using aerobars while on MUPs. I guess I just whined then, so I will stop.

I never ride in aero position (on my road or commuter bikes) when in congested situations. When in club-rides or otherwise, you’ve gotta have your hands on the brakes when close to others. My commuter-mtn-road-frankenstein-thing is setup to the same fit as my road bike, it just happens to be a 29er that weighs over 30 lbs., have a kick-stand (heaven’s forbid!) and soak up any bump I ride I could ever ride through (rather than 18lbs like my road bike, which I’d never expose to half the junk I commute through.)

[Dirt]

@thecyclingeconomist 30714 wrote:

As a father with a history of obesity, this is my opportunity to do cardio. I hate the gym, but I will keep my body in shape for not only my own well being, but for my family. I (fortunately or unfortunately) treat every ride as part of my physical training and maintain a schedule of hard rides/recovery etc.

Totally understand. I share your hatred of the gym. I know time is a factor too. I don’t have kids, but I usually work 60+ hour weeks and have a lot of other stuff going on. Hains Point works wonderfully for those purposes… Much, much better than the MVT.

Respectfully submitted.

[thecyclingeconomist]

@Dirt 30715 wrote:

Totally understand. I share your hatred of the gym. I know time is a factor too. I don’t have kids, but I usually work 60+ hour weeks and have a lot of other stuff going on. Hains Point works wonderfully for those purposes… Much, much better than the MVT.

Respectfully submitted.

So, you just add a loop along Ohio Dr. to a regular commute?… again my problem is time… it all adds up quickly. I want to be home with my family even more than riding (and I LOVE riding.)

[Dirt]

@thecyclingeconomist 30716 wrote:

So, you just add a loop along Ohio Dr. to a regular commute?… again my problem is time… it all adds up quickly. I want to be home with my family even more than riding (and I LOVE riding.)

Yup. Depending on the week, I am usually there 2-3 nights per week. Occasionally I get a lap or two in the morning done. I’ve got a few hill repeat loops on small back streets along the way home that add in cardio and leg frying workouts.

I’ve seen and experienced wayyyyyyy too many bad things happening with people training on multi-use trails.. even in broad daylight. Not saying it is gonna happen to you, but I’ve seen it happen to many… some are guys that I know are REALLY good cyclists. There’s just too many things out of our control to do it safely. There’s something to be said for arriving at home to that family safely.

[thecyclingeconomist]

@Dirt 30718 wrote:

Yup. Depending on the week, I am usually there 2-3 nights per week. Occasionally I get a lap or two in the morning done. I’ve got a few hill repeat loops on small back streets along the way home that add in cardio and leg frying workouts.

I’ve seen and experienced wayyyyyyy too many bad things happening with people training on multi-use trails.. even in broad daylight. Not saying it is gonna happen to you, but I’ve seen it happen to many… some are guys that I know are REALLY good cyclists. There’s just too many things out of our control to do it safely. There’s something to be said for arriving at home to that family safely.

I agree. There are a lot of things that one has to pay attention to on the multi-use paths. I try to commute between 6 and 7am, which helps a LOT! The ride home… well, it’s just not as fun because of the huge mix of people…

So, since this thread has been somehwhat hacked, I’ll try to bring it back to the “whining” issue:

I guess I now have to admit that I’m a whiner. I’d also say that just as in California: my number 1 whine is earbuds. Why go outside if not to experience it! Listen to the birds/water/wind… not some carpy corporate produced music.

Okay… back to work.

God bless, and have a safe ride home! It’s beautiful out today!

[acc]

A good reason to use places like Fort Hunt, Bull Run, and Hains Point for training are the sight lines. Being able to see 200 yards ahead and having an entire lane to yourself makes it easier and safer to work on speed. The trails are tough to get traction on, there are people and strollers, pets and assorted wildlife entering and exiting the paths. Maybe if you get way past Herndon on the W&OD there are long stretches where the trail is mostly empty.

ann

[sjclaeys]

I strongly agree with Dirt about slowing down. From my perspective, a lot of dangerous situations both during the day and at night could be avoided if folks just kicked it down a notch. I totally understand the desire to make the most of the commute for getting exercise, but often I see the drive to finish that interval or keep that heart-rate up as causing people to take unacceptable risks on MUPs that are not designed for such purposes.

[GuyContinental]

@thecyclingeconomist 30712 wrote:

As I have invested in legit lights for year-round use, I am not going to use inferior lights which make it so I can’t safely see my surroundings simply because others don’t have lights that properly light up their surroundings at night. As I said, I’m probably being stubborn on this, but with good reason. I attempt to maintain an 18-22mph avg. on the MVT when safe (yes, I ride for exercise…on every commute. I have a schedule, a goal heart rate, I do sprint intervals, leg-drops etc etc.) Low-powered lights simply do not come close to having enough penetration to make my field and depth of vision sufficient for a safe athletic ride. This is regardless of what other’s lights are like. (I also understand that it’s unfortunately a real investment to purchase a real lighting system. It took me years of slowly wasting money on 100 to 400ln producing lights, only to realize that I needed to buck up and put the money into a sufficient water-proof lighting system. One with a separate flood and spot, casting between 1000 and 2000 effective lumens depending upon the mode.)

OK- so I’m a light hater with a set of 400ln dual MTB lights because I ride lots o’ miles on areas of the W&OD where there aren’t a whole lot of lights and I do so at 5 and 6 am. Right now in the “shoulder” season I get away with a low ln Frog light beacuse the inner sections of the trail are reasonably well lit. In about a week I’ll have to convert to the full set so that I can see out past Vienna. My rules for bright lights are:

On a trail
1. Angle down as far as you can and as right as you can
2. NEVER use a ft high ln strobe on a trail. You will kill the ninja that I suddenly can’t see… via my body
3. Unless conditions are dangerous, always cover your lights for oncoming (you get no points for covering a strobe, I’m already blind)
4. Run the lowest setting possible
5. Have white in front, red in rear and some sort of side light, preferably orange but you get bonus points for COLREGS compliance
On a road
1. Be as visible as you need to be
2. Try and keep your beams lower than eye level

So, why is a trail different from a road? Someone already mentioned the night sensitivity but most major roads also have side markers for orientation (the nice white line)- you can take your eyes completely off the road but still stay on track simply by following the line (not a great idea but better than being blind) On a trail it’s super easy to end up in the weeds…

The fact that you’ve been yelled at, not once, but a few times suggests a light adjustment might be in order- if you hit me with a 400 ln strobe I’ll definitely yell*- usually something like “I’mmmm blinnnndd!!!” or “THE SUNNN IT’S THE SUNNNN!!! ARRRGHHH!!!” (but I’m not a cusser…)

Also, training in the dark on the MVT is definitely not Kosher- waaay too many ninjas out there. If I remember correctly you located yourself somewhere up towards King’s St- I think that there are some nice hilly road routes through “Beverly Hills(?)” that will give a nice workout without too much traffic exposure. I recently discovered that it’s actually 1 mile shorter for me to head through the Arlington Hills of Lorcum and Military than to stick to the Custis- but it’s a much better workout.

*WWDD? Probably not yell… sigh…

[txgoonie]

@thecyclingeconomist 30712 wrote:

I attempt to maintain an 18-22mph avg. on the MVT when safe (yes, I ride for exercise…on every commute. I have a schedule, a goal heart rate, I do sprint intervals, leg-drops etc etc.)

Unfortunately it’s not posted nearly enough, but, the speed limit on the MVT is actually 15mph. I know it’s like most speed limits and everyone feels that it’s too low and you can safely operate your vehicle at a higher speed and everyone pretty much does. Not like there’s any enforcement of it anyway. But it is there for a reason. Just something to keep in mind. When I have a tailwind and can easily cruise at 20mph, sometimes I don’t even realize it, but there’s a time and a place. I think we can all sympathize with not having enough time and wanting to multitask commuting and training, but on the route you’ve chosen, you just can’t have it both ways. An MUT is not a place to train.

The alternate route I take from Alexandria paralleling the MVT goes down Potomac Ave., which, being relatively low on traffic, is an awesome place to do intervals and links back up with the MVT on Crystal Drive. I see people riding back ‘n forth doing workouts out there all the time.

[thecyclingeconomist]

Again… I never run strobes at night on the path, what’s the point?? It doesn’t’ help me see the path any better than if I just had the light on, and is both annoying to me, and it would be truly annoying to anyone coming towards me… I thought I’d said this above.

Running both my lights as strobes is for daytime-in traffic-save my life from cars situations. But, ironically, I can absolutely verify (with video) that running a single strobe on the path has gotten both pedestrian and cyclist’s attention and helped avoid ANY possibility of a wreck (even at low speed, with earbuds in, it doesn’t matter how much I yell “on your left” or ring my bell. Visual stimulation is required.) So, if it’s dark… I run a flood (aimed right in front of my front tire), and a spot… shooting down path (of course it’s aimed as far right as possible). I’m not TRYING to blind anyone. My point is: I won’t turn my lights off for your benefit at the cost of my own safety.

I run the following Dinotte flood: http://store.dinottelighting.com/dinotte-xml-3-headlight-p174.aspx
I run their spot too: http://store.dinottelighting.com/dinotte-xml-1-headlight-p172.aspx
I run their RED taillight which is MEANT to be aimed down (it creates a bouncing effect that gets drivers attention better, and of course I wouldn’t run white light off the back, it’s not a taillight. The taillight is always on, and always on strobe.): http://store.dinottelighting.com/400r-red-taillight—seat-post-seat-stay-chain-stay-or-rack-mount-p91.aspx

In any event, as a light lover, I think that I’ve stated that I try to do everything on your list. Maybe light-haters and light-lovers can get along after all… as I said, I’m open to the feedback, or I wouldn’t have posted in the first place. I think that commuting over 5-years and having been “scolded” three times isn’t that bad to be honest. But, the negative always sticks out, even among so much positive.

Back to whining: I hate earbuds… they cause so much grief on multi-use paths.

[rcannon100]

No. Maybe I’m off-base, but my strobes/headlights aren’t any brighter than an oncoming car, and they provide safety for me, as well as those oncoming. Why can’t we simply divert our eyes from the oncoming light?

Good question. It has everything to do with the strobe. The pulsing strobe lights basically operate faster than the average eye can adjust. With strobe on, all that can be seen is white. With strobe off, all that can be seen is darkness. And then it repeats faster than the eye can adjust. (this also includes the strobe to normal beam – as you have still blinded with the strobe pulse).

For the oncoming traffic, you have blinded them.

Car headlights are designed not to blind oncoming traffic. They are pointed down – and they are at an intensity that should not blind oncoming traffic. And they dont strobe. Car high beams can make it very hard for oncoming traffic to see – and generally people do not high beam each other for this reasons. You can also be ticketed for high beaming people.

As far as you putting your own personal safety above mine (as the oncoming traffic), um, look, I just dont know how to say it polite. You are being a schmuck. As the oncoming cyclists to a high beam strobe on a trail, I am blind. That is insanely dangerous.

Your question is a good question. Contrasting cars to bikes. Cars by regulation take care not to blind oncoming traffic. I would ask that you also take that care.

[Author]

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