Am I at fault if I get hit at this type of intersection?

[Emm]

Question for the legal minds here. There’s a spot on my route in Alexandria where I go from a trail (which ends at that point), cross in a crosswalk, and then divert into the street. It’s a T intersection, and I’m crossing the top of the T. It has a crosswalk, and a pedestrian light. I ONLY cross when the pedestrian signal gives me the white cross signal. See attached very-true-to-life artwork if you want to see what I’m talking about.

Recently, I’m had numerous close calls at this intersection with cars flying through the crosswalk without stopping, to turn right onto Four Mile Rd. I was discussing this with another bike-person yesterday, who said as a cyclist, I’m likely going to be partly at fault in a crash like this, EVEN if I’m inside of or right next to the crosswalk, with a walk signal since Virginia law has some weird rules with bikes in crosswalks, especially if I am attempting to cross in the crosswalk and then divert into the road (and not continue onto the sidewalk). More or less regardless of if I’m crossing with a walk signal, and mostly staying in the crosswalk, I’ll get dinged with contributory negligence since I shouldn’t be there/driver will claim I wasn’t in the crosswalk even if I was or I was within 12 inches of it, etc.

Is this a real issue I need to be prepared for? Should I either a) continue onto the sidewalk briefly so I’m staying in the crosswalk the entire time vs diverting a foot or two before the crosswalk ends into the road (which is sadly, exactly where I’m likely to get hit), which is going to likely inconvenience a number of pedestrians at this crossing or b) accept this is absurd, and find a new route home since I’m likely going to get hit here and will have fault in the accident? It’d be ridiculous that I can’t use the best route I have home because people don’t understand red lights mean stop. [ATTACH=CONFIG]19777[/ATTACH]

Topic

[scoot]

I would have a very difficult time spinning a version of events that would place any blame on you for this hypothetical incident. (If anything, your maneuver both makes you more visible AND gives these drivers extra space in which to stop before hitting you. Not that the extra space should be necessary, since it is a red light with a crosswalk after all!)

But perhaps that is why I am not a lawyer.

[creadinger]

I’m curious to know what the legal wonks have to say as well.

That is an annoying intersection for through traffic. I’ve not done your route through there, but I know from a driver’s perspective the lights are terribly timed on Mt Vernon probably adding to their impatience. Do you know if any of these right-on-redders are people trying to cut-through the neighborhood to get to Russell or mostly residents of the apartments back there?

Here’s the intersection for those curious: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8428268,-77.0638662,3a,75y,323.89h,63.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sr1KVHWqhCTMVpSdGU4z7mA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dr1KVHWqhCTMVpSdGU4z7mA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D131.40092%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

One question: If there’s a lot of known unsafe turning here and the likelihood of getting hit is unacceptably high, does it really matter if a collision could be your fault or not? While you’re perfectly fine and healthy I might just let the right-on-red jerks have their day and find a new route. At the very least call Alexandria for some visible enforcement here. As nearby residents my wife and I would be be happy to call too!

[Tania]

I see “yield to pedestrians” signs on the street view in both directions on Mt Vernon Ave.

[Emm]

@creadinger 188507 wrote:

One question: If there’s a lot of known unsafe turning here and the likelihood of getting hit is unacceptably high, does it really matter if a collision could be your fault or not? While you’re perfectly fine and healthy I might just let the right-on-red jerks have their day and find a new route. At the very least call Alexandria for some visible enforcement here. As nearby residents my wife and I would be be happy to call too!

I’ve reported this and had a discussion about this intersection with BPAC’s wonderful police liaison who said they’d up patrols around here since they’ve also gotten numerous other reports, and reported it via Alexandria Families for Safe Street’s reporting tool, so that’s been done. But if you want to report via call click connect or your other channels, please do!!! The more reports the better.

And my current issue is with the Glebe Rd bridge out, this is my safest and most direct route to ParkFairfax right now, so to need to find a 3rd route option really makes me :mad:. But I agree, getting hit should also not be an option.

[LhasaCM]

Also not a lawyer, but: I would think continuing on the sidewalk briefly would be less predictable and put you in greater jeopardy from a car thinking they’ve cleared you before you then join the street. That just seems like one extra thing to have to check. Since the car should be coming to a complete stop prior to proceeding right on red, I tend to agree with scoot that I can’t envision a scenario where you’d be at fault in this instance. From the Virginia DOT “Bicycling in Virginia” website, this scenario is somewhat analogous to the “Pedestrian Left Turn” described at http://www.virginiadot.org/programs/bikeped/laws_and_safety_tips.asp#Changing%20Directions so should be allowable(?) Virginia law (https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-904/) also notes that when crossing a roadway at a crosswalk, a bicycle has all the rights and responsibilities as a pedestrian, though local ordinances can be more restrictive.

Doesn’t address the “is it worth it” question from a risk assessment standpoint, however.

In addition to visible enforcement, maybe Alexandria would consider adding to the existing signage reminding drivers to yield to pedestrians when turning?

[reji]

@Emm 188504 wrote:

See attached very-true-to-life artwork if you want to see what I’m talking about.

I noticed all the fine details of your very-true-to-life depiction, including the fact that your bike is pink!

[bentbike33]

The problem here is the T-intersection means the right-turn-on-red crowd (don’t even get me started on how right-turn-on-red was the first step in the downfall of Western Civilization we are currently living through) has no fear of vehicles coming from their left so they don’t even bother to look, much less stop, before proceeding. An engineering solution would be to add one of these to your commuter set-up.

[zsionakides]

@Emm 188510 wrote:

I’ve reported this and had a discussion about this intersection with BPAC’s wonderful police liaison who said they’d up patrols around here since they’ve also gotten numerous other reports, and reported it via Alexandria Families for Safe Street’s reporting tool, so that’s been done. But if you want to report via call click connect or your other channels, please do!!! The more reports the better.

And my current issue is with the Glebe Rd bridge out, this is my safest and most direct route to ParkFairfax right now, so to need to find a 3rd route option really makes me :mad:. But I agree, getting hit should also not be an option.

The Glebe Rd bridge does have one of the lanes barreled off for peds/bikes to use. Is there a reason you can’t use that.

[Emm]

@zsionakides 188516 wrote:

The Glebe Rd bridge does have one of the lanes barreled off for peds/bikes to use. Is there a reason you can’t use that.

It is an option for going home at night. Just not a great option either since it requires me to wait at a very long and unpredictable light, and then also go through the “I hope right turners don’t hit me” dance, or over-shoot the bridge by going over, turning around on a sidewalk, and getting into the lane.

Plus 4MR park is fun to bike through so I prefer that over riding on 4MRT along Glebe

[lordofthemark]

@zsionakides 188516 wrote:

The Glebe Rd bridge does have one of the lanes barreled off for peds/bikes to use. Is there a reason you can’t use that.

I use the route Emm mentions when going from work to a certain place of worship at the corner of Valley and Kenwood on Friday nights. It avoids the Glebe Road bridge, and the climb on Valley (in general travel lanes the whole way, and I am slow up that hill) Other than the spot Emm mentions, its a pretty comfortable route – a mix of pretty rideable general travel lanes, and reasonably good conventional bike lanes (IE door zone, but low parking turnover, and mostly uphill)

Also of course there are likely riders who live in the area right along Four Mile Run Road, since it is an area of affordable housing where some residents rely on bikes for cheap transportation.

[TwoWheelsDC]

I get the feeling that the law is vague enough that you’re basically at the mercy of the responding police officer and how they perceive the situation and write the report. If the report leaves any wiggle room on fault, which in this case seems not unlikely, the driver’s insurance company will almost certainly seize on that and try to deny your claim. When I got hit in December, the FFX police found the driver 100% at fault, but still managed to not actually cite the driver because I was following another car (yes, it’s absurd). 2.5 months later, and the driver’s insurance still hasn’t paid me for property damage and is still “investigating.” It’s possible that they aren’t planning to question the fault decision, but they’re taking their sweet-ass time and I suspect some of that is trying to find some contributory negligence issue to hide behind.

[semperiden]

@Emm 188517 wrote:

It is an option for going home at night. Just not a great option either since it requires me to wait at a very long and unpredictable light, and then also go through the “I hope right turners don’t hit me” dance, or over-shoot the bridge by going over, turning around on a sidewalk, and getting into the lane.

I hate those 2 lights on Glebe. However, if you are already on the 4MR trail, you can go through the underpass on Glebe and make a U-turn at the sidewalk on S Four Mile Run Dr to get to the bridge. It totally avoids the light.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

They have a red light. They have no right of way until the light is green. They don’t get to hit you just because you’re on a bicycle. But if you’re on a bicycle then a driver will claim you were going 20 mph and didn’t give the driver a chance to not yield (I know. It sounds stupid. It is stupid). If you walk a bike though, you can only be going the speed of a pedestrian and they can’t claim that you “came out of nowhere.” Even if you ride 2 mph slower than a pedestrian, if you’re mounted the driver and all his eyewitness cohorts will claim you were an out of control maniac and that it’s your fault.

It was already said: the T-intersection means drivers have the habit of rolling the right on red because they’re never in conflict with cars. it behooves you to be at low-speed if you ride across here so that you can stop and avoid the collision that won’t be your fault, but they won’t blame on the driver either.

[Steve O]

@bentbike33 188514 wrote:

The problem here is the T-intersection means the right-turn-on-red crowd (don’t even get me started on how right-turn-on-red was the first step in the downfall of Western Civilization we are currently living through) has no fear of vehicles coming from their left so they don’t even bother to look, much less stop, before proceeding.

In terms of which, has anyone here ever seen a police officer give a ticket to someone who rolled a right on red? All of us see cars barely slow down before turning right, yet I cannot ever recall seeing anyone stopped for this behavior.
So, in addition to bentbike’s point about no fear of vehicles, there is also no concern about any enforcement.

[creadinger]

@Emm 188510 wrote:

But if you want to report via call click connect or your other channels, please do!!! The more reports the better.

Done!

I submitted another request to see about getting a large swastika carved into the top of a tree stump removed, so I figured I’d do 2 in one day.

[Author]

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