Alexandria Updates

[KLizotte]

@huskerdont 141701 wrote:

To me, the fact that new riders often ride in the door zone even when there is no bike lane is a red herring. People will do things wrong sometimes–especially people new to an activity. However, a bike lane in a door zone states that the State thinks this is where you are supposed to ride, and thereby encourages and teaches new riders to ride unsafely.

It also confuses the hell out of drivers (and infuriates them) when they see experienced cyclists riding to the left of the white line to avoid the door zone. This is usually brought up in reader comments any time there is an article about cycling in the news.

[lordofthemark]

@huskerdont 141701 wrote:

To me, the fact that new riders often ride in the door zone even when there is no bike lane is a red herring. People will do things wrong sometimes–especially people new to an activity. However, a bike lane in a door zone states that the State thinks this is where you are supposed to ride, and thereby encourages and teaches new riders to ride unsafely.

Of course the other thing is that the state does not know when cars are parked there – often when I am riding in a door zone bike lane, there are no cars parked for a shorter or longer stretch, and so that IS the “rightmost safe and practical location”.

And of course what newbies do is what matters – experienced riders who are both comfortable taking the lane, and who know better, are entitled to take the lane anyway. If drivers do not understand why, then “bikes may take full lane” signs are appropriate, as well as education/enforcement. It may be necessary to forego adding seg infra for that reason, but I am leary of making it a general rule of doing so.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141705 wrote:

It also confuses the hell out of drivers (and infuriates them) when they see experienced cyclists riding to the left of the white line to avoid the door zone. This is usually brought up in reader comments any time there is an article about cycling in the news.

Presumably those of us comfortable riding with traffic are also comfortable ignoring newspaper comments I mean we are not supposed to accommodate the confusion of newbie riders, but we are supposed to accommodate the confusion of commenters on newspapers? They also do not understand why cyclists take the lane when there is a nearby MUP (“a bike path” as they usually say) and in Alexandria at least, they do not understand that CaBi is not a for profit enterprise) I would rather accommodate the 7 MPH slow riders who are (legitimately) more intimidated by taking the lane than by dooring.

[KLizotte]

@lordofthemark 141703 wrote:

Ah, I was confused because you said now there is room for safe passing – there is still room for safe passing, but in your experience (on Joyce) drivers will not avail themselves of the room if they see a BL.

I wonder how many riders there are on Joyce. On Eye Street there are lots of riders, most who use the BL tend to ride on the left (IE on the white line or close to it) to avoid dooring, and there are also quite a few who routinely take the lane – and there are many instances when riders in the BL have to move into the general travel lane, whether to avoid a car standing in the BL, a car pulling into or exiting a parking space, to pass slower rider, to pass a pedestrian, to pass a salmoning rider, etc (it is a daily adventure) and it seems to me most regular drivers of the route get used to the fact that A. riders ride the white line in the BL and B. riders are often in the general travel lane.

I am also not sure how that would play out on Prince and Cameron.

If you are referring to Eye St in DC then it is conceivable those are daily commuters who travel the same route every day and get used to the interactions. Plus everyone knows it is chaos in any city’s downtown so it is best to expect the unexpected (jaywalkers, salmoning cyclists, U-turners, etc).

So. Joyce Street is inundated with tourists (due to the Fashion Centre mall/Pentagon Row and influx of hotels in the area) so you got a lot of drivers who are unfamiliar with the area. There is also a *lot* of tour bus and taxi activity.

Cameron St doesn’t really fit either mold. I’m just cautioning against putting in badly designed bike lanes. They really do need to be wide enough to be effective otherwise I think they cause more harm than good. Badly designed they encourage door zone riding and drivers expect cyclists to stay to the right of the line even when they are not. Overall I’m a big fan of the BLs on Commonwealth Ave because I can stay out of the door zone and cars can pass me safely often without changing lanes (the road changes in width and median separation along its length).

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141709 wrote:

If you are referring to Eye St in DC then it is conceivable those are daily commuters who travel the same route every day and get used to the interactions. Plus everyone knows it is chaos in any city’s downtown so it is best to expect the unexpected (jaywalkers, salmoning cyclists, U-turners, etc).

So. Joyce Street is inundated with tourists (due to the Fashion Centre mall/Pentagon Row and influx of hotels in the area) so you got a lot of drivers who are unfamiliar with the area. There is also a *lot* of tour bus and taxi activity.

Cameron St doesn’t really fit either mold. I’m just cautioning against putting in badly designed bike lanes. They really do need to be wide enough to be effective otherwise I think they cause more harm than good. Badly designed they encourage door zone riding and drivers expect cyclists to stay to the right of the line even when they are not. Overall I’m a big fan of the BLs on Commonwealth Ave because I can stay out of the door zone and cars can pass me safely often without changing lanes (the road changes in width and median separation along its length).

I appreciate this discussion, but bottom line, I am a citizen of Alexandria, I attend BPAC meetings (though I am not a member) and I am not going to suggest to Hillary Poole that Alexandria NOT stripe these lanes. I think net – net, they will help encourage biking in Old Town, and will not detract from safety. Though, as Fairlington above implies, and as your response to the GGW quote of the woman who does not like taking the lane on Cameron confirms, the safety and comfort impacts are not the same for all classes of riders. Cyclist speed in particular impacts comfort taking the lane – and I believe (though I have no studies to confirm it) also impact the safety of taking the lane on the one hand, and the safety of riding in the door zone, on the other.

[KLizotte]

@lordofthemark 141708 wrote:

Presumably those of us comfortable riding with traffic are also comfortable ignoring newspaper comments I mean we are not supposed to accommodate the confusion of newbie riders, but we are supposed to accommodate the confusion of commenters on newspapers? They also do not understand why cyclists take the lane when there is a nearby MUP (“a bike path” as they usually say) and in Alexandria at least, they do not understand that CaBi is not a for profit enterprise) I would rather accommodate the 7 MPH slow riders who are (legitimately) more intimidated by taking the lane than by dooring.

Well, considering what happened in Kalamazoo (and other road rage events) we can’t take the ignorance or rage of drivers lightly.

Also, please do not take the possibility of dooring lightly either. It can kill you since there is a high likelihood of being pushed into on-coming traffic and being run over if you do get doored.

In general, I’m only in favor of bike lanes on streets where drivers can safely pass cyclists without having to cross into another lane; otherwise drivers will simply stay in their own lane to pass cyclists because they assume it is safe to do so since the cyclists are in their own lane. The exception is downtown city streets like DC.

[KLizotte]

@lordofthemark 141711 wrote:

I appreciate this discussion, but bottom line, I am a citizen of Alexandria, I attend BPAC meetings (though I am not a member) and I am not going to suggest to Hillary Poole that Alexandria NOT stripe these lanes. I think net – net, they will help encourage biking in Old Town, and will not detract from safety. Though, as Fairlington above implies, and as your response to the GGW quote of the woman who does not like taking the lane on Cameron confirms, the safety and comfort impacts are not the same for all classes of riders. Cyclist speed in particular impacts comfort taking the lane – and I believe (though I have no studies to confirm it) also impact the safety of taking the lane on the one hand, and the safety of riding in the door zone, on the other.

I haven’t fully thought this through but encouraging them to take out a car lane(!) and installing a cycletrack like the one of 15th Street may be very useful and safe. It is a major PITA to go from Commonwealth Ave to the MVT because Cameron is a one way street.

I just worry Alexandria won’t be willing to give up valuable driver real estate (driving or parking) and may make the situation worse rather than better. If they really want to slow down cars and make things safer they could install more street lights and get rid of the blinking caution light and stop signs.

[S. Arlington Observer]

I tend not to ride on anything other than the most untraveled of streets (11th and 13th St N. in Arlington, for example) without a bike lane. Dooring is an issue, but not nearly as intimidating to me as riding in a lane with vehicle traffic. I guess it really depends on whether not one wants lots of people to cycle, or if it should be the transportation mode only for the confident athletic few.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141715 wrote:

I haven’t fully thought this through but encouraging them to take out a car lane(!) and installing a cycletrack like the one of 15th Street may be very useful and safe. It is a major PITA to go from Commonwealth Ave to the MVT because Cameron is a one way street.

I just worry Alexandria won’t be willing to give up valuable driver real estate (driving or parking) and may make the situation worse rather than better. If they really want to slow down cars and make things safer they could install more street lights and get rid of the blinking caution light and stop signs.

The PBL battle on Cameron (and Prince?) was already fought, IIUC.

Note not all of Cameron is two lanes WB. The two section is one lane in each direction. I would also note that the section where it is one way (and part of where it is two way) the parking is not metered – that may account for why I saw little parking turnover.

[KLizotte]

@S. Arlington Observer 141716 wrote:

I tend not to ride on anything other than the most untraveled of streets (11th and 13th St N. in Arlington, for example) without a bike lane. Dooring is an issue, but not nearly as intimidating to me as riding in a lane with vehicle traffic. I guess it really depends on whether not one wants lots of people to cycle, or if it should be the transportation mode only for the confident athletic few.

That’s the point though; sometimes riding in the bike lane is actually more dangerous than taking the lane and newbies don’t understand that. That is why the infrastructure has to be well designed so that newbies (and experienced) can ride safely while not knowing a whole lot.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141713 wrote:

Well, considering what happened in Kalamazoo (and other road rage events) we can’t take the ignorance or rage of drivers lightly.

Also, please do not take the possibility of dooring lightly either. It can kill you since there is a high likelihood of being pushed into on-coming traffic and being run over if you do get doored.

I do not take dooring lightly and know it can kill. I also do not take being hit from behind lightly. That can also kill. I do not think we have adequate data on all the issues that determine the likelihood of each – from driver expectations (when driving, and when exiting a parked vehicle) cyclist speed relative to motor vehicle speed, volume of parking turnover, etc. When I take the lane I am very careful to be aware of my surroundings, of vehicle volume and speed, to use auditory clues of vehicle proximity and behavior, etc. When I am in a door zone bike lane I am hypervigilant to look for signs of individuals in parked cars (and I HATE tinted windows), of a recently parked car, etc. In neither case are the dangers entirely within my control however.

As for what happened in Kalamazoo I have not heard exactly what caused it – though I note reports the driver was seen driving erratically BEFORE encountering the cyclists, which makes me think it was a form of irresponsible driving unrelated to the mode wars.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141718 wrote:

That’s the point though; sometimes riding in the bike lane is actually more dangerous than taking the lane and newbies don’t understand that. That is why the infrastructure has to be well designed so that newbies (and experienced) can ride safely while not knowing a whole lot.

Well designed infra on Cameron would involved removing the parking, and replacing it with a buffered (not car protected – for maximum visibility and escape options) bike lane. Oh, and with separate signaling for bikes and for turning cars, to avoid conflict at intersections. The likelihood of getting that is zero.

The existing sharrows do not effectively encourage newbies to ride safely. The only reason I took them the first time was because I had already read extensively about these issues.

We still have lots of riders riding sidewalks in places where the general travel lanes are safer and more comfortable than Cameron Street (and sometimes places where sidewalk riding is illegal) We seem unable to even manage to educate everyone about that.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141715 wrote:

I haven’t fully thought this through but encouraging them to take out a car lane(!) and installing a cycletrack like the one of 15th Street may be very useful and safe. It is a major PITA to go from Commonwealth Ave to the MVT because Cameron is a one way street.

Commonwealth>Dangerfield>Prince

BTW, from what I can gather, lots of cyclists hate, hate, hate the 15th street cycle track, with dangers from head on collisions with other cyclists, and dangers from turning cars . I don’t think there is any infra that all cyclists with all speeds and abilities will like.

[lordofthemark]

@KLizotte 141688 wrote:

I use the bike lanes all the time on Commonwealth and appreciate them.

Why exactly? If anything, they make me a tad more nervous than many others, because the median prevents cars from moving to the left. I probably ride further to the right in them than I normally do in a door zone BL as a result (and were I faster I would probably take the lane there) and count on the low parking turnover to keep the odds in my favor.

[KLizotte]

@lordofthemark 141725 wrote:

Why exactly? If anything, they make me a tad more nervous than many others, because the median prevents cars from moving to the left. I probably ride further to the right in them than I normally do in a door zone BL as a result (and were I faster I would probably take the lane there) and count on the low parking turnover to keep the odds in my favor.

I find the the road is wide enough in most places that drivers can pass me without having to cross into another lane; there are a few places where this is not possible. I always ride outside the door zone too. There are also very good sight lines and relatively few intersections. I routinely take Commonwealth to avoid the MVT if I’m going to Old Town and frequently use it for fitness rides since I can go fairly fast along its length (and hit Mt Ida if I feel like a hill workout) and do loops. Of all the main roads in the area, I find it one of the safest and most stress free. I don’t recall any bad passes or negative interactions along its entire length (from FMR to Daingerfield). Hopefully I haven’t jinxed myself. I feel safer there than I do on the MVT (at least during the good weather months).

[Author]

Posts