Advice needed: Should I switch from 2X10 to 1X11 on a touring bike

[Bruno Moore]

@GovernorSilver 128744 wrote:

Interesting thread.

The Kona Private Jake that I test rode comes stock with a 40T chain ring as part of its 1×11 SRAM drive train. Climbing on it took more effort than the other test bikes though, because its largest rear cog was 32T. I would have loved to try its brother the Kona Rove ST, which also has a 1×11 drivetrain and 40T chainring but with a 36T as the largest cog.

Strange thing is, I’ve never run out of gears on the low end of my Private Jake—done some mountain biking, three ‘cross races, the GAP, some local commuting, ‘cross practice, that kind of thing. Where I have almost run into trouble, though, was taking a supernice carbon Jamis Supernova Team with Force CX1 out to Fairland; while Ellie has a Mere Mortal friendly 40/11-32 gearing, the Supernova has a 42-tooth chainring…which means I never left the bottom three gears when on dirt. Usually just kept it on the bottom one, to be honest, though I was still able to outclimb about anyone else out there that day (a problem, since I can’t descend worth dirt). Could be that I use clips with Ellie and can get more power, could just be that I’m used to how she rides, as opposed to an unfamiliar demo bike, could be that I run her slightly wider tires tubeless and thus wayyyyyy lower (25-32 psi) than I did with the pinchflattable demo (~50, iirc), but those two teeth seem to have made more difference than I would have thought.

I do sometimes run out the top end on pavement, however, like the opening sections of the Met Branch southbound after 8th NE. Not usually a problem, though. On the GAP, I was able to sustain a long (~3 miles) solo drag chasing my dad in the top three cogs over level but well-maintained dirt; that wasn’t an easy effort, though it was sustainable. When using this bike on dirt, in other words, I’ve never felt the 1x to be a loss, and, when racing, I appreciate the benefit when I hear the sounds of straining front mechs, clattering as chains fall off, and swearing from behind me as one more piece of equipment I never have to worry about breaking fails on someone else’s bike.

I’d also argue that the touring brother of the Private Jake would be the Sutra LTD, which has the 36/10-42 Rival 1 drivetrain kinda like the PJ. If you’re looking into touring 1x—and yes, there’s quite a bit of discussion of it in bikepacking circles, though mostly of the “can we pull it off yet?” variety—that’s a good place to start.

[GovernorSilver]

@Brünø Moore 128994 wrote:

Strange thing is, I’ve never run out of gears on the low end of my Private Jake—done some mountain biking, three ‘cross races, the GAP, some local commuting, ‘cross practice, that kind of thing. Where I have almost run into trouble, though, was taking a supernice carbon Jamis Supernova Team with Force CX1 out to Fairland; while Ellie has a Mere Mortal friendly 40/11-32 gearing, the Supernova has a 42-tooth chainring…which means I never left the bottom three gears when on dirt. Usually just kept it on the bottom one, to be honest, though I was still able to outclimb about anyone else out there that day (a problem, since I can’t descend worth dirt). Could be that I use clips with Ellie and can get more power, could just be that I’m used to how she rides, as opposed to an unfamiliar demo bike, could be that I run her slightly wider tires tubeless and thus wayyyyyy lower (25-32 psi) than I did with the pinchflattable demo (~50, iirc), but those two teeth seem to have made more difference than I would have thought.

Congrats, the Private Jake is a nice bike.

I’m not sure I should say that I “ran out of gears” on my test climb on the Private Jake, because I did make it to the top of the hill. Then again, I’m not an expert level climber (whatever that means) either. I’m just saying I had to work harder to climb on this bike than on the other bikes I tried – due to the single 40T chain ring – but did it kill my climb – no it did not. I am used to my Breezer Uptown 8, which has a single 38T chainring. So naturally out of all those bikes, I had the easiest time climbing on the Bianchi Volpe Classic, which was the only bike I rode with a triple chainring – it thus has the granny gear.

My climb has been killed on only two bikes – the Breezer when I was first learning how to ride a bike, and the Volagi Viaje (SRAM drivetrain) at Bikenetic, because I’d never ridden with SRAM shifters before and shifted in the wrong direction in the middle of a climb.

@Brünø Moore 128994 wrote:

I’d also argue that the touring brother of the Private Jake would be the Sutra LTD, which has the 36/10-42 Rival 1 drivetrain kinda like the PJ. If you’re looking into touring 1x—and yes, there’s quite a bit of discussion of it in bikepacking circles, though mostly of the “can we pull it off yet?” variety—that’s a good place to start.

Wow, looks like nice competition to the Salsa Fargo (the bike featured in the Kathmandu to India bikepacking video that I posted in General Discussion).

[bluerider]

@Brünø Moore 128994 wrote:

I’d also argue that the touring brother of the Private Jake would be the Sutra LTD, which has the 36/10-42 Rival 1 drivetrain kinda like the PJ. If you’re looking into touring 1x—and yes, there’s quite a bit of discussion of it in bikepacking circles, though mostly of the “can we pull it off yet?” variety—that’s a good place to start.

Yes, this is basically what I am doing with the my Vaya but I think I am going to use a 34T chainring. Already have the 10-42, SRAM Force1 long cage derailleur and shifters. Also, got a crazy good price on a SRAM XX1 crank (didn’t need it but it knocks off 400 grams of weight.) Still need to order a White Industries driver and select a SRAM direct mount chainring and ratio. Probably have the swap in January or February after a finish grinding dirt and salt through the current drivetrain over the winter.

[Raymo853]

@ginacico 128878 wrote:

Thank you to GovernorSilver and Raymo853 for the gear calculators.

I updated my spreadsheet, allowing for up to 11 cogs, made it more pretty, got rid of redundant fields, yada yada.

In the end, my gearing choices were strongly influenced by what I already had. I have t0o much bike cr*p to justify getting any new stuff. I am using an 11-32 9 speed cassette and 46/34 chainrings. Fine on the high gear, but missing the really low range for loaded touring. Will be fine for the main uses of this bike: gravel grinding, light duty CX, commutes, C&O touring, and randonneurs. When (if) I go touring with panniers beyond the C&O, I will put on a 12-36 cassette.

[ATTACH]10201[/ATTACH]

[ginacico]

So I’m busy specking out a new bike, and referred back to this thread thinking about drivetrains. The dilemma still exists.

Because I’m a problem child, I want one bike that does everything. On my Vaya (now totaled, sadly) I had achieved near nirvana by swapping out the rear cassette to 11-36 with a long-cage 9-spd derailleur, and keeping the stock triple and Ultegra 10-spd shifters. It got me about 22 gear inches (feel free to check my math) on the low end, which was adequate for getting me up almost any hill even loaded. But I didn’t lose the average range for commuting and roads.

Now I’m trying to decide between an Ultegra 11-spd double or SRAM, as I’m not interested in Di2 or belt drive options. Triples are out of fashion (for good reason). The good news is, I’m working on the bike with Co-Motion who well understands the dilemma, and hopefully they can come up with good suggestions.

Curious, has anyone built up a touring bike recently? Tell me about your drivetrain!

[bentbike33]

You don’t want to hear about mine since I searched high and low for a triple that would take a 24T granny because I want a bike that can go fast and pull stumps.

[huskerdont]

I’ve yet to run out of gears on either of my 11-speed Ultegra bikes, but I have run out of gears on the 10-speed 105 gravel bike (although that may have been a function of the hill at Dirt Farm). I do feel like I can get a bit easier gearing on my bike with the triple using the small gear than with the doubles, but I haven’t done the math to verify it. I’d have to look up the cassettes’ teething since that’s just not something I remember.

Long/short is I do like the Ultegra 11-speed setup.

[PeteD]

Old Boone which was doored was 1x Force – 40 Chainring, 11-28 in the back. 40/28 is racing gearing. Any steep hill required good sustained effort — Walter Reed hill was really hard efforts on the Boone. First transmission change I put a 11-32 on the back and was decent, but not something I’d want to take up a long steep climb.

New Diverge is 1x Force: 42 Chainring, 10-42 casette. 42-10 so far I’ve only been able to spin out on it on some extreme downhills. 42-42 is spin-too-much-to-win for me; there’d no doubt I can get up any hill, but I’d probably fall over from poor balance instead. If you went with a 40, 10-42, you’d probably get real close to your 22 Gear Inches.

The issue I have with using the 1x for long touring is missing a lot of the in-between gears. I seem to be stuck a lot in either a too-hard gear (Rule #5) or too easy, and have no other recourse other than to grind it out and deal with the sore knees later.

–Pete

[n18]

@ginacico 182361 wrote:

So I’m busy specking out a new bike, and referred back to this thread thinking about drivetrains. The dilemma still exists.

Because I’m a problem child, I want one bike that does everything. On my Vaya (now totaled, sadly) I had achieved near nirvana by swapping out the rear cassette to 11-36 with a long-cage 9-spd derailleur, and keeping the stock triple and Ultegra 10-spd shifters. It got me about 22 gear inches (feel free to check my math) on the low end, which was adequate for getting me up almost any hill even loaded. But I didn’t lose the average range for commuting and roads.

Now I’m trying to decide between an Ultegra 11-spd double or SRAM, as I’m not interested in Di2 or belt drive options. Triples are out of fashion (for good reason). The good news is, I’m working on the bike with Co-Motion who well understands the dilemma, and hopefully they can come up with good suggestions.

Curious, has anyone built up a touring bike recently? Tell me about your drivetrain!

Last December, I upgraded my hybrid from 3×7 to 3×10, which costs me about $200. I had to learn what’s compatible and what’s not. The main site that I used is this one, which is posted by a member here, also Shimano site. If you buy incompatible parts, they may not work together and no amount of screw adjustment would make them work. The most troublesome parts are the front gears. You can’t mix road shifters with MTB front derailleurs and vice versa. In the rear, you can mix them with an exception for Shimano Dynasys, which is a different animal. With that said, here is what I recommend:

Your former bike: Salsa Vaya Travel, size: 54 cm, Front crankset: 30/42/52, Cassette: 11-36.

Your requirements:

– Dropbar shifters.
– Disk brakes.
– Front crankset: 30/52
– Rear: 11-36
– Gear inches: 21.14(Based on wheel size 700×23 with Gatorskin tire, or 25.36″ Total wheel diameter)

I couldn’t find a road front derailleur that supports 30/52 gears(22 Tooth difference), only 30/50, or 32/52(20 tooth difference max), but the rear derailleur supports 11-42, so you get even wider ratio if you want. However, my recommendation is to get a bike with 2×11 speed with 34/50 or 36/52 on the front, so the only thing you need to do is change the rear derailleur and cassette. This recommendation is based on the fact that you can use MTB rear derailleurs(except Dynasys) with road shifters.

Rear Derailleur: RD-M8000-SGS
Make sure that you select the “Long cage” option.
Minimum rear sprocket size: 11T
Maximum rear sprocket size:
40T(3×11-speed)
42T(2×11-speed)
46T(1×11-speed)
This rear derailleur has a huge total capacity of 47T, so it can handle wide gear ratios in the front and rear. It also features sealed bearings.

Where to get it:

1 – REI: $80, and if you add 2 more full price drivetrain components, you get 10% off, and that’s in addition to to the 10% back in store credit, or 19% total discount, so your total cost is $64.80. They usually ship the next day, and you get it in 3 days total. They don’t have it in stores, unfortunately.

https://www.rei.com/product/895589/shimano-xt-rd-m8000-rear-derailleur-11-speed

2 – JensonUSA: $63:

https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT-RD-M8000-11SP-Rear-Derailleur

– Cassttee: Any 11 Speed silver cassette will do.

Gear inches when using 52/36 in the front:
11-40: 22.83″
11-41: 22.27″
11-42: 21.74″
Gear inches when using 50/34 in the front:
11-40: 21.56″
11-41: 21.03″
11-42: 20.53″

[dkel]

Rohloff with belt drive. Loads of range, smooth as butter. Also expensive as all get out. I’m thinking of going to a Rohloff at some point, because it has some great advantages, even for touring. The problem is finding a shifter solution for drop bars, since the stock shifter is designed for flat bars. There are several good aftermarket solutions, though. Chain drive is cheaper than belt drive, but where’s the fun in that? (It’s certainly not in lubing that chain every few days!)

[LhasaCM]

@dkel 182372 wrote:

Rohloff with belt drive. Loads of range, smooth as butter. Also expensive as all get out. I’m thinking of going to a Rohloff at some point, because it has some great advantages, even for touring. The problem is finding a shifter solution for drop bars, since the stock shifter is designed for flat bars. There are several good aftermarket solutions, though. Chain drive is cheaper than belt drive, but where’s the fun in that? (It’s certainly not in lubing that chain every few days!)

If it’s gear range you want, why not get a Pinion gearbox with a belt drive (which is what my ‘bike that’s sold as a touring bike but I use for most things’ came with)? The P.18 has a wider range than a Rohloff hub, and the added weight is located in the bottom bracket rather than the rear hub which has its benefits. Co-Motion offers both as options, with a good solution for a drop bar shifter for either. Just don’t mind the price…

Of course – neither option is within the original requirements, so feel free to ignore us.

Slightly more useful: I also have a 1×11 SRAM drivetrain on my “fun” bike – 40T up front, and 10-42T on the rear. Similar to what Pete noted, I sometimes find myself (especially on a steeper hill such as Tilden climbing out of RCP towards Van Ness/UDC but also sometimes on rolling terrain) struggling to get the right gear and missing having an interim option. Not sure how much of it is familiarity vs. the available range, but I don’t have that problem with the 18-speed Pinion gearbox (with or without trailer/trailercycle attached).

[huskerdont]

To follow up on the cassettes, the two bikes with Ultegra 11 have 11-28 and 11-32, not that I’ve ever noticed the difference, probably because the one with less range has a compact crankset (50/34). The 10-speed 105 also has 11/28.

[DismalScientist]

You know, if you just used shift levers, none of this would be a problem.:rolleyes:

[mstone]

@DismalScientist 182376 wrote:

You know, if you just used shift levers, none of this would be a problem.:rolleyes:

And if you rode a proper ordinary you could simply avoid all of this new-fangled “gear shifting”. :rolleyes:

[ginacico]

@DismalScientist 182376 wrote:

You know, if you just used shift levers, none of this would be a problem.:rolleyes:

Annnnd we’ve come full circle

So, 1X’s are in fashion, and ultimately that’s what the OP of this thread wound up with. The complaint people make about missing gears, though…. my knees are mostly shot already, and I can’t afford to be a gear masher. Spin to win is equivalent to knee preservation, and I’ve been really spoiled by triples.

The Pinion 18 is nothing short of impressive. I got to demo a few at Bikenetic, and Co-Motion has jumped on the bandwagon building compatible frames. They do Rohloff drives too, not sure how they solve shifters for drop bars. My logic against internally geared belt drives is threefold. First and foremost, as a travel touring bike I’ll be taking it apart and putting it in a suitcase on a semi-regular basis. CoMo makes provisions for disassembly, I’m just not convinced I want to do that very often. Second, weight. The CoMo will be a full six pounds lighter than Vaya. Third, cost. I’m already overspending the insurance settlement, and the things I’m willing to shell out for are the generator hub and light kit, and a nice paint job.

It’s notable that nobody is rooting for a SRAM mountain double. I’m in agreement with the testimonials to stick with Ultegra.

@n18 182370 wrote:

Rear Derailleur: RD-M8000-SGS
Make sure that you select the “Long cage” option.

– Cassttee: Any 11 Speed silver cassette will do.

Ding ding! I think this is precisely the answer I was hoping for. It’s the equivalent of what I did with the 10-spd triple, but compatible with new 11-spd Ultegra. I very much appreciate you honing in on specifics and providing all the background resources too, good stuff n18!

It remains to be seen whether CoMo will swap out parts, or whether I get the stock package and do it myself later.

Today I put down a deposit on the bike, which gets me “in line” at the shop with about an 8-week turnaround. Still plenty of time to fret over decisions.

Like paint colors…. ¡Ay, caramba!. No I don’t want to crowdsource that one. :p

Fun video that makes me want to quit my job and move to Oregon.

[video=youtube_share;oSE34BcHlLk]https://youtu.be/oSE34BcHlLk[/video]

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