A “plastic bag fee” approach to scoring

[Indiana]

Interesting idea. I thought the current weighting already highly incentivized not missing a day.

In past years I’ve had a couple team members who didn’t fully understand the scoring at the start of the game and then got demotivated when they realized how hard it would be to dig themselves out of a hole. This would be a reason to consider having teams from Week 1, so people can see earlier on how each day riding affects a team’s score and their ranking.

Personally I was wondering if it would be possible to automate a “best 6” alternate scoreboard, where a rider’s best 6 days of the week got counted. Sometimes a day of rest is a good thing, after all (as long as it doesn’t mean taking a car for a trip that would otherwise be by bike)!

But overall for a game that’s mostly just for fun, I prefer carrots to sticks.

[jrenaut]

I agree on carrot vs stick, but the current scoring system is about as big a carrot as you can get without penalizing people for riding TOO MANY miles.

Maybe the problem is that people don’t read so they don’t know the rules. Does anyone who is a better dancer than me (so literally everyone) want to make a TikTok that explains you should be riding every day?

[merlin]

I’ve been thinking of a “your stats” module on the website (if folks actually check the site). It could count the # days you haven’t ridden and have a warning bar for low riders, along with the more positive stats.

[jrenaut]

I’m all for more stats pages, but I think if people aren’t reading the RULES, they also aren’t going to read any stats page.

[LhasaCM]

A few scattered thoughts:

It’s tough – I’m not sure what can be done about the “education” issue.

Maybe an alternate scoreboard of something like Indiana’s idea (e.g., best 6 of 7 days in a week count, or count the top 10 of the 12 on the team each day) would be interesting to see if that tightens things, but I would be surprised if that makes a huge difference, and that still doesn’t address the inherent despair of being far behind with little hope of catching up  😀

Another complicated idea would be to treat each week like a separate “competition” – top team gets 20 points, 2nd place gets 19, etc.  And then you just total up each weekly tally for a final score.  It wouldn’t change the overall standings, probably, but it would give teams something to aim for (we might be in 19th overall, but let’s try to finish in the top 3 *this week*!)  Or do a first half/second half sort of thing – something to remove the demotivation that comes from being in an early hole on the leaderboard by wiping the slate clean for an upcoming period.  It’s like the “second chance” NCAA brackets websites run for those who made a mess of the opening weekend…

(Yes, I know there’s already the “Team Wins by Day” leaderboard, so it’s a similar idea but with longer timeframes.)

[Steve O]

An economist would point out that there is not really a difference between a five-point bonus and a five-point penalty, so this idea is the equivalent of giving riders 15 points for their daily ride and non-riders zero. Simpler to implement, but not really any different.

OTOH, behavioral economists would point out that people are more loss averse than gain loving, so a penalty might have a greater behavioral effect. That would lead one to the proposal that all non-riders should receive a 10-point penalty for not riding rather than riders getting a 10-point bonus, doubling down on the loss aversion cognitive bias.

The psychologists would then weigh in with the notion that doing that would lead to despair and discouragement and the eventual doom of Freezing Saddles.

IMO, none of these scenarios is likely to be even noticed by those who are only kinda participating anyway.

[Steve O]

Once upon a time we implemented a scoring rule that limited any one individual rider’s team contribution to 150 points (for individual rankings, no limit), with the idea that it would blunt the effect of the super riders. I think that our analysis after the fact indicated it made little or no difference.

That’s been the case with most of our scoring changes over the years. I think the current scoring system is the best so far. That said, I have been a proponent of also including non-miles/days metrics, since Freezing Saddles is, at its core, a social game. Hence, social metrics should be the basis of the scoring system – or at least a component.

[chill-dad]

This is also why we have team captains who can reach out to riders and say, “come on, lets go for a ride” or “hey, there are three kids who are riding more than you.”

It’s interesting to look at the team by team individual rankings and see how the top teams are generally (somewhat) more evenly distributed.  So, is the solution a better scoring system or more social engagement with our teams to, say, ride to the brewpub near the laggarts’ home?

[jen_stoly]

So I’m usually a daily rider but I got a terrible cold on Wednesday and I haven’t been able to ride since (fever, hacking cough, no meaningful sleep). Let’s keep things positive and not penalize folks who cannot ride for “legit” reasons. This is supposed to a fun and motivating competition. There are always folks who don’t quite get the point system but that’s just part of the deal.

[jrenaut]

Totally understandable when people can’t ride for legitimate reasons. In 2019 I tore my Achilles in early March, obviously couldn’t finish the competition.

That’s why I suggested a very small penalty – it doesn’t really hurt those who are attempting to compete but temporarily can not, it just sends a message that everyone should really get out there when you ARE able.

[Nadine]

I remember that @jrenaut. You shared a story about jumping up to save your daughter who had fallen while you were riding together – I feel like she was on a trail-a-bike but now I’m not sure 🤔.

I remember thinking you should get a dad award – especially as your achilles tear while you were doing it  gave you such a sucky penalty.

I know, you also said that she was fine & a trouper, and probably didn’t actually need your saving – so your superhero  quick reaction mighta cost you more than it got her.

But I bet she remembers that day, and knows she’s well loved & protected, & that’s huge…..(even huger now given the way this country is going 😖)

[Nadine]

2/1/25

I’ve been thinking about this conversation…. in light of some of the more devastating recent changes in our country.  I’ve noticed that Freezing Saddles is oversubscribed this year, even though a number of regulars aren’t playing.  I wonder if we might be seeing as big of reaction  /escape ….

Here’s where I’m coming from.  I have an Eeyore-Tigger marriage. He brings the doom and gloom – along with fallout from the news & a lot of other stuff he’s been taking in that we really need to know about but I can’t spend time wallowing in  — cuz it’s my job to bring the woo-hoo!  Which would be hard to maintain anytime, and harder in the present environment if it weren’t for you guys and this game – and my whole cycling community.  So I wonderwhether maybe in the current environment which seems to adversely affect SO MANY, people are looking for fun outlets to help them keep their woo-hoo alive — which explains why there might be more new people.

And new players don’t always play like freezing saddles cycling junkies – I’d say they usually don’t.  It might not be because they don’t know the rules, but because they don’t feel the pull the rest of us do.  It may yet come.  I had a player on my team the year I captained the winning team (2022 or 23) who hardly rode outside for the first half of FS — and when I talked to him about it it turned out it really didn’t work for him to exercise outside til the light changed.  Sure enough he started riding outside daily about halfway into the game, and he was like our secret weapon! And this year I see he’s playing and he’s a daily rider!

Anyhow so my opinion is that the FS addiction is a process, and doesn’t hook everyone the same. (It hits some ppl so  hard they end up having to leave!  Remember Bob James leaving in the middle of the game? And he was so far ahead that it took Lynn Salvo 6 weeks to catch up with him after he’d stopped.)

Also I bet some of the non daily riders are getting stuff out of it too. Maybe they’re better at bike /life balance than we are. They may yet sink to our level though 😁🥳🤪💕🥶🚴🏼‍♂️🚴🏼🚴‍♀️🤷🏻

[PBS]

I’m not too sure scoring is the issue, but rather awareness of the purpose of FS.  I think people join up thinking biking might be fun now and then during the winter.  They don’t really care about scoring, but rather think it’s a low stress way to maybe get them out of the house a couple of times a month.  Pointing out in bolder letters that it’s a competition and most competitors are expected to bike a lot to help their team succeed, might weed out some of the people who might not otherwise pay attention to scoring.

[Author]

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