The Ethics of Breaking Traffic Laws
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lordofthemark.
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April 12, 2018 at 1:24 pm #1086576
CBGanimal
Participant@f148vr 177376 wrote:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2296681/ethics-breaking-traffic-laws
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I do like the statement that the infrastructure creates the culture…interesting
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April 12, 2018 at 2:06 pm #1086579ChampionTier
Participant“…if you want cyclists to follow the law, you’ve got to make it possible for them to do so without dying.”
One of the many lines from this article that stood out as gold.
April 12, 2018 at 2:40 pm #1086582Crickey7
ParticipantI dislike that law abiding is posited as irrational for cyclists. Break the law if you want, justify it as you want, but don’t judge those many of us who deem traffic laws as part of the same social contract that all laws serve.
April 12, 2018 at 2:58 pm #1086583lordofthemarkParticipant@Crickey7 177387 wrote:
I dislike that law abiding is posited as irrational for cyclists. Break the law if you want, justify it as you want, but don’t judge those many of us who deem traffic laws as part of the same social contract that all laws serve.
I don’t see Eben saying that those who follow the letter of the law where he would not are irrational. He said he sometimes breaks the law to improve his safety (for survival is clearly an exaggeration – waiting for the green at an intersection with chaotic turning behavior, instead of proceeding on the all red phase, may make it more likely you will get hit, but your odds are still not that bad). You may make a choice that slightly lessens your own safety, due to some other value you have. I know I often forego Idahoing a red where Idahoing is likely safer, and I do not feel judged by this article.
I find the piece pretty sensible, and am happy to see Eben express himself this well without cursing.
April 12, 2018 at 4:00 pm #1086588dkel
Participant@lordofthemark 177388 wrote:
I … am happy to see Eben express himself this well without cursing.
Were you reading the same article I was?
April 12, 2018 at 4:29 pm #1086591lordofthemarkParticipantApril 12, 2018 at 4:52 pm #1086593bobco85
Participant@Crickey7 177387 wrote:
I dislike that law abiding is posited as irrational for cyclists. Break the law if you want, justify it as you want, but don’t judge those many of us who deem traffic laws as part of the same social contract that all laws serve.
I think the sentiment is not to judge those who follow traffic laws more strictly but to acknowledge the moral relativism in breaking said laws and how the extenuating circumstances play into effect. I think it’s the idea that traffic laws (specific rules and regulations) fail to communicate the general intent of creating a safe environment because there is no flexibility.
We all have a spectrum of what would be more/less acceptable in our eyes, and I know everyone would differ in opinion when looking at situations of potentially breaking the law like the following examples (BTW only some of these are lawful):
- Cyclist filtering through gridlocked vehicular traffic
- Cyclist not stopping at every stop sign on a bike trail
- Pedestrian entering crosswalk on flashing “Don’t Walk” signal
- Driver making a right turn on red with “No Turn on Red” sign but no pedestrians/cross traffic anywhere nearby
- Cyclist slowing to walking pace but not stopping at a stop sign
- Cyclist in bike lane sees a car with its hazards on blocking the bike lane in distance, moves into travel lane a block away in anticipation to get around
- Driver on interstate pulling over onto the shoulder to check their phone (non-emergency)
- Cyclist only crossing at non-bicycle-detecting stoplight after waiting the full 2 minutes or 2 full light cycles
- Pedestrian crossing a street mid-block
- Driver driving less than 10 mph above the speed limit
I guess to sum it up, I would only consider it irrational if someone were to only follow traffic laws to their strictest interpretation instead of considering the circumstances in each situation.
April 12, 2018 at 5:36 pm #1086596n18
ParticipantTwo things:
1 – There is a myth that some drivers(and bike thieves) believe in; that some cyclists have money to burn just because they ride “fancy” bicycles. Why they don’t use cheap bicycles? I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am 30% faster on average(for a 10-Mile ride) on my road bike(18 LBS) vs my upright aluminum hybrid with front suspension(28 LBS). I am probably 50% faster than *mart-type bike or even more. So having the right tool for the job means getting there on time, or not at all.
2 – The one who breaks traffic laws(regardless of whether they were enforced or not) will get more liability. The one who doesn’t fully stop, gets more liability when bad things happen. A driver who keeps his lights off and prefers to be invisible gets more liability. A cyclist who go the opposite way on bike lanes gets more liability, and so on.
A cop could be present and not enforcing the law when there are no crashes, but once something happens, you discover that enforcement or lake of, or how traffic laws are commonly interpreted(by people copying each other) is irrelevant in court. The one who’s opinion matters is the judge presiding on your case. A police officer or lawyer with a long experience in the subject may have a better guess on what the judge is going to decide.
So, many people fall for the trap of deducing laws based on how they were enforced, and this seems to be a local thing(County/State).
April 13, 2018 at 1:43 pm #1086616dplasters
Participant@Crickey7 177387 wrote:
I dislike that law abiding is posited as irrational for cyclists. Break the law if you want, justify it as you want, but don’t judge those many of us who deem traffic laws as part of the same social contract that all laws serve.
I don’t see it as any different than law abiding being irrational for motorists. Swing round the beltway doing 55 or less and let me know how safe you feel? I dislike that the social contract is not enforced. But that’s the point right? It’s not enforced because we get the infrastructure users that the quality of the infrastructure deserves.
April 13, 2018 at 2:03 pm #1086617streetsmarts
ParticipantI haven’t had time to read the article but will share anyway. Cause I wanted to but haven’t had a chance.
Recently..riding south on 11th st. In morning bike traffic. Around V or W st. I believe, we approached a stop sign – me and the 7 or 8 cyclists in front of me.
The first 1 or 2 went through the intersection.
However as I approached I saw a woman and her dog waiting to safely cross 11th st.
I stopped at the stop sign. I had time to see her and stop because I slowed like I always do .and because it’s the safe thing to do.6! Cyclists coming behind me blew through the stop sign even as I yelled “STOP there’s a pedestrian trying to cross!”. They did not.
Then ..their just desserts..I caught up with said cyclists at the U st. Stop light.
They told me I should shut up. That they could go through as a group. And that I wasn’t the bike police (ok point taken – maybe I should just model the good behavior).
But why the heck can’t you be bothered to stop at a stop sign *when a ped is WAITING and wanting to cross*??
Seems a little courtesy to peds – and obeying the law– would be helpful and help our image as scofflaws.
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April 13, 2018 at 2:11 pm #1086571
JuddParticipant@streetsmarts 177424 wrote:
I haven’t had time to read the article but will share anyway. Cause I wanted to but haven’t had a chance.
Recently..riding south on 11th st. In morning bike traffic. Around V or W st. I believe, we approached a stop sign – me and the 7 or 8 cyclists in front of me.
The first 1 or 2 went through the intersection.
However as I approached I saw a woman and her dog waiting to safely cross 11th st.
I stopped at the stop sign. I had time to see her and stop because I slowed like I always do .and because it’s the safe thing to do.6! Cyclists coming behind me blew through the stop sign even as I yelled “STOP there’s a pedestrian trying to cross!”. They did not.
Then ..their just desserts..I caught up with said cyclists at the U st. Stop light.
They told me I should shut up. That they could go through as a group. And that I wasn’t the bike police (ok point taken – maybe I should just model the good behavior).
But why the heck can’t you be bothered to stop at a stop sign *when a ped is WAITING and wanting to cross*??
Seems a little courtesy to peds – and obeying the law– would be helpful and help our image as scofflaws.
I think you should be the bike police.
April 13, 2018 at 2:19 pm #1086618Participant@Judd 177425 wrote:
I think you should be the bike police.
Point taken. I had a brief fling with that a few years ago. You can well imagine my success rate and the number of epithets hurled at me. So, no, it’s not our jobs to be the bike police. My one exception is politely asking people passing on MUPs to call their passes. I think that’s important and okay if done non confrontationally.
April 13, 2018 at 3:54 pm #1086621lordofthemarkParticipant@streetsmarts 177424 wrote:
I haven’t had time to read the article but will share anyway.
When you do read it, I think you may be pleased. Eben emphasizes precisely the importance of not endangering pedestrians – that it matters HOW you break the law, and WHERE you do so.
April 13, 2018 at 4:42 pm #1086622consularrider
Participant@Crickey7 177426 wrote:
Point taken. I had a brief fling with that a few years ago. You can well imagine my success rate and the number of epithets hurled at me. So, no, it’s not our jobs to be the bike police. My one exception is politely asking people passing on MUPs to call their passes. I think that’s important and okay if done non confrontationally.
FYI, the US is just about the only place in the world I’ve ridden where anyone at all call their passes.
April 13, 2018 at 5:03 pm #1086624JuddParticipant@Crickey7 177426 wrote:
Point taken. I had a brief fling with that a few years ago. You can well imagine my success rate and the number of epithets hurled at me. So, no, it’s not our jobs to be the bike police. My one exception is politely asking people passing on MUPs to call their passes. I think that’s important and okay if done non confrontationally.
This was specifically meant for Jeanne. Jeanne is allowed to be the bike police.
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