Drive train dilemmas

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  • June 19, 2017 at 3:43 pm #919497
    ginacico
    Participant

    So, Vaya needs a new drive train. I finally wore it out; front chainrings are jagged, rear cassette worn in places, bottom bracket is clunky, and of course chain and cables need replaced.

    I’ve always said when the time comes, I want to switch to something with better hill-climbing capacity. I’m a spinner, not a masher, and my knees are not getting younger. Vaya truly gets used as a go-anywhere bike, including but not limited to loaded touring (when I really need the low gears), long-distance rides, gravel and commuting. So I want the lowest gears possible while still having a wide range for the other stuff.

    Current build is Ultegra 10-speed triple. Kinda obsolete, and I’m told that the rear derailleur won’t allow a bigger cassette.

    I’m not ready to commit to a 1×11, so exploring my options:

    • Minimal parts swap ideas. Is there any other rear setup I could use with my Ultegra STI shifters? Found a Tiagra 10-speed rear derailleur and an XT mountain derailleur that would allow for a bigger cassette, but I’m told neither would be compatible. I could try them for free, but if it results in wonky shifting I won’t be happy. Any experience/clues if that could work?
    • Upgrading to Ultegra 11-speed won’t get me much gearing advantage, and would be pricey. Kinda ruled this out already.
    • Vayas sold today include SRAM Apex. I got a quote for a SRAM Rival setup, 12-36 rear cassette, 50/34 compact double in front. Even if I buy the whole group, it’s less expensive than Ultegra. I’ve never used SRAM, am I going to like or regret it? I plan to go out and test ride a couple.
    • Other ideas??

    All opinions welcome, please enlighten me with your sound reasoning so I learn something.

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  • June 19, 2017 at 4:07 pm #1072492
    Tania
    Participant
    Quote:
    •Vayas sold today include SRAM Apex. I got a quote for a SRAM Rival setup, 12-36 rear cassette, 50/34 compact double in front. Even if I buy the whole group, it’s less expensive than Ultegra. I’ve never used SRAM, am I going to like or regret it? I plan to go out and test ride a couple.

    Do you have other drop bar bikes that are shimano? All of my drop bars are SRAM – not because I necessarily prefer it to shimano, but because my first one was SRAM and I decided I didn’t want to bother dealing with the different shifting techniques from bike to bike. It’s just too much for my brain.

    June 19, 2017 at 4:16 pm #1072493
    ginacico
    Participant

    @Tania 161897 wrote:

    Do you have other drop bar bikes that are shimano? All of my drop bars are SRAM – not because I necessarily prefer it to shimano, but because my first one was SRAM and I decided I didn’t want to bother dealing with the different shifting techniques from bike to bike. It’s just too much for my brain.

    My other bike is Campagnolo. So I’d be adapting to a third shifting technique :rolleyes: and the Shimano would go away. But hey if SRAM is easy to live with, I’m teachable!

    June 19, 2017 at 4:19 pm #1072494
    timo96
    Participant

    Goes for Shimano only:
    You can use a 9 speed mountain rear der with 10 speed road shifters (but not 4700). Same cable pull ratio.

    So this would work: http://www.jensonusa.com/!Ed6pKfDjL30EBhwz4OHsQQ!/Shimano-Deore-M591-9-SPD-Rear-Derailleur?

    You cannot use a 10 speed mountain der with 10 speed road shifters. Also, as far as I know, the newest Shimano 10 speed road stuff (Tiagra 4700) does not shift the older 10 speed stuff (4600, 6600, 6700, 5600, 5700).

    If you’re switching to a double up front, you’ll need a new front der shifter, so you might as well upgrade the entire drive train. If you’re going to stick with the triple up front, you can find replacement rings for that crankset (find them online or have a shop find them for you)… or you can put a 4700 triple on in front.

    June 19, 2017 at 4:36 pm #1072496
    EasyRider
    Participant

    I have no experience with this item, but it’s billed as a cheap way to make your existing derailleur compatible with larger cassettes.

    https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/roadlink

    Ultegra is nice stuff, personally, I’d be reluctant to replace those parts.

    June 19, 2017 at 4:49 pm #1072497
    TwoWheelsDC
    Participant

    I put SRAM 1x on my gravel bike, coming from all Shimano previously, and I fell in love. I’m coming to a decision point about upgrading the groupset on my road bike. I really want electronic shifting, but SRAM e-Tap is too expensive. So my decision will be to go SRAM mechanical or Shimano electronic. If there was no desire to go electronic, I’d just switch to SRAM without hesitation, both for the feel of shifting and because SRAM seems to be better about allowing for much lower gearing in the back without having to go to a MTB groupset.

    As for learning a new system, I switch back and forth between Shimano and SRAM on an almost daily basis, and haven’t found it confusing or anything.

    June 19, 2017 at 5:03 pm #1072499
    ImaCynic
    Participant

    @ginacico 161898 wrote:

    My other bike is Campagnolo. So I’d be adapting to a third shifting technique :rolleyes: and the Shimano would go away. But hey if SRAM is easy to live with, I’m teachable!

    I found switching between Campy and Sram is far more challenging than Campy and Shimano. All my bikes are Campy shod, and had to ride a Sram equipped bike on a ride and found it to be completely counter intuitive to the Campy scheme. I suggest that you try doubletap first before committing.

    Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

    June 19, 2017 at 5:37 pm #1072500
    Brett L.
    Participant

    You may wish to explore upgrading to a Shimano 105 setup rather than Ultegra. Yes, it’s not quite AS nice, and it’s a little heavier, than today’s Ultegra, but you’ll probably find that it performs better than your older Ultegra system. On top of that, replacing worn out parts (chain, cassette, etc.) will be cheaper in the future than with Ultegra.

    June 19, 2017 at 5:58 pm #1072504
    hozn
    Participant

    My bikes have SRAM now. I much prefer the shifting.

    In SRAM the cable pull ratio is 1:1, which is (I believe) means more cable pull than Shimano. (Not sure about their road stuff, but I believe Shimano 9spm MTB was 1:2.)

    Anyway, this has implications:
    (1) SRAM delivers (IMO) clearer, crisper shifts even as drive train wears or gets subjected to dirty conditions. I first switched to SRAM 1:1 on my MTB because I had really bad experience with Shimano stuff getting gummed up in races. Never looked back.
    (2) The act of shifting into easier gears is also, in my experience, harder on SRAM double tap levers. Part of that may be the smaller effective lever (compared to moving the whole brake lever for Shimano), some of it may be the additional cable that needs to be pulled, and some of it may just be my setup (though I tend to use pretty decent compressionless shifter housing and stainless jagwire cables.).

    For me Shimano shifting — especially when it’s more than a few hundred miles into the drivetrain — just feels vague. Other people like it because it’s really quiet and nuanced (SRAM is loud clunk-clunk shifting, but I love that). I felt like I was always fiddling with my derailleurs on the commuter when I ran Shimano 105 because shifting would get really sloppy. This is not a problem I’ve had since moving to SRAM.

    SRAM levers are also rebuildable. The parts may not be especially cheap, but you can replace the shift paddle, brake lever, etc. Certainly a lot nicer than having to buy a whole new one (Shimano). I know Campy has this advantage too.

    SRAM levers are reach-adjust so good if your hands are smaller. The hoods are also quite small on the non-hydro levers, which was a negative point for me, but now that I’m all hydro I’m very happy (mostly because of the hydro, but the ergonomics are much better for bigger hands too IMO).

    Finally, I think SRAM is the way to go for a gravel-type rig, since they have good drivetrain intercompatibility (well, mtb 10sp parts are compatible with both road 10sp and road 11sp), lots wide-range cassettes and longer-cage derailleurs, etc. Of course, I like 1x, but it may not be the best for you.

    I don’t think moving between Shimano and SRAM shifting is a big deal. A few times I found myself trying to “shift” the non-movable SRAM brake lever after transitioning from a Shimano rental. Once I got used to SRAM, I liked being able to pull the shift paddles to the bar and shift from the drops. I also like being able to downshift while braking (e.g. going into a turn and knowing I need a lower gear coming out of it), which I don’t think works with the STI levers.

    June 19, 2017 at 6:04 pm #1072505
    TwoWheelsDC
    Participant

    @hozn 161909 wrote:

    I also like being able to downshift while braking (e.g. going into a turn and knowing I need a lower gear coming out of it), which I don’t think works with the STI levers.

    I do this all the time with my 105 levers…it’s just a little more awkward than with SRAM.

    June 19, 2017 at 6:22 pm #1072509
    EasyRider
    Participant

    I have SRAM Apex on my newest build. Only a few weeks in, but I like the levers for the reasons Hozn describes.

    I’ve also got a 46/30 FSA crankset on that bike. I think FSA may be the first big maker to be offering this combo, which up to now has been kind of a boutique item. Seems like these cranks could be the key piece of the puzzle if you’re trying to have even lower gearing that what you have now, with a 30t granny ring on the Ultegra triple.

    The FSA 46/30 would give you noticeably lower gearing than the 50-34 SRAM compact double you mentioned … and about the same gearing as your current setup with that $20 roadlink bit I mentioned :)

    June 19, 2017 at 6:26 pm #1072510
    hozn
    Participant

    @TwoWheelsDC 161910 wrote:

    I do this all the time with my 105 levers…it’s just a little more awkward than with SRAM.

    Ok, yeah, I guess I don’t remember — or perhaps I just never tried it (the idea of pulling the lever while moving it laterally does seem odd from a muscle perspective).

    June 19, 2017 at 11:00 pm #1072520
    DismalScientist
    Participant

    How about a fixie conversion?

    Otherwise, it sounds like you need barend shifters in friction mode. Might I recommend a used set of Suntour Barcons?

    June 20, 2017 at 12:25 pm #1072537
    Vicegrip
    Participant

    How about an opinion way off the present track?

    Di-2 and done. You need all the mechanical bits already so go big, know it will all just work and never look back. No mix and match that is the road to “sorta works OK”. Never have a rusted cable with split ends to replace, tune or get gunked or iced up. I put over 20,000 miles on a DI-2 drive train that has lived on a couple of frames and only replaced normal rear items chains, chain rings, cog sets and one set of jokey wheels on the RD. Battery still strong with a charge lasting over a month of daily riding and the RD has survived 4 or 5 drive side splats including one that folded the hanger over and caused structural damage, fluid and outer coating loss to the motor. Never ever once did me wrong. 0.0 fails. The sound ice crunching off the FD and RD with nothing but a slight twitch of a gloved finger on a button is satisfying after dealing with my cable shift bike in the slop. Have to get off and chip off the ice crust now and then to get it to shift got old real fast. So much for the “Bad weather bike” Installing the 20,000+ mile old DI-2 on the bad weather bike after installing a fresh new DI-2 11 speed on the daily bike. No trimming the FD and you can set it up to syncro shift and put Up Down shift buttons anywhere you like on the H bar. Long cage RD, 32 tooth big cog and compact double. Wide range and clean shifting no chain drops, sucks or noise.

    June 20, 2017 at 12:46 pm #1072540
    Sunyata
    Participant

    I am going to assume that you have not read my DK200 race report. I will give you a short synopsis…

    Every person I saw with a busted drive train had a Shimano build. This may be coincidence, but…

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]15011[/ATTACH]

    In all seriousness, I have to agree with Hozn. I have always been a fan of SRAM shifting. It may be a bit clunky, but it just works. It even works in disgusting Kansas mud (SRAM Rival 22 – currently set up as 50/34 and 11-36).

    June 20, 2017 at 2:13 pm #1072547
    AFHokie
    Participant

    If this helps as a reference point of workable options: my bike came new from Giant with a Tiagra groupset and a Shimano HG50 which is a 11-34 mtb cassette. The chainrings are 34/48.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

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