Sign on W&OD in Sterling telling drivers not to stop for cyclists/pedestrians

[MFC]

@jrenaut 159707 wrote:

Via Twitter from a forum member whose handle I’ve forgotten: VA 46.2 831

Its not an imitation of an official traffic control device. This provision is aimed at fake stop signs, etc.

[hozn]

@Tania 159708 wrote:

Reprehensible is kinda harsh, I’d call them very (VERY) misguided.

I had to read the linked article several times to figure out (a) what exactly was going on and (b) why he thought he was helping PROTECT cyclists. Basically, Sterling is four lanes, two in each direction with a center median. A ped/cyclist was waiting to cross and the driver of the car in the near lane stopped to wave them through. The car in the lane next to them (traveling in same direction) didn’t stop and ped/cyclist almost got smushed. At least according to the sign maker, maybe the ped/cyclist knew better and was going to peek around the stop car to see if another car was coming. I got t-boned in a car when I was 20 because I did NOT look when a driver waved me through. Hard lesson to learn but boy I learned it good.

So after reading the linked article (repeatedly) and lots of head scratching, the sign maker seems to be asking cars not to stop and wave people through because the car next to them might not also stop and this puts trail crossers at risk. Points for effort I guess.

(I think about getting t-boned by the car in the far lane every time I bike home via Memorial Bridge. I hate all of those crossings.)

Editing to add this article that a friend found about drivers being TOO polite to pedestrians at crossing such as Sterling Blvd.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/metropolis/2016/07/multiple_threat_crashes_and_pedestrian_safety.html

Yeah, my first reaction reading the earlier posts (I did not read the article, but guessed that this was probably what was going on — i.e. trying to avoid unexpected stopping there) was that this, at least as intended, probably would improve net safety at that intersection. Obviously if a car sees someone in the street they should stop, but the sign wasn’t instructing cars to kill pedestrians in the crosswalk; it was instructing them not to stop if they see someone waiting to stop.

Crossing at that intersection sucks. It can take awhile waiting for a gap. I’ve never actually experienced drivers stopping there. This sign highlights a problem, but I don’t think it actually makes the situation worse. I prefer cars not stop for exactly the reason Tania mentions. In multi-lane-in-each-direction crossings — like this one — the cars in the adjacent lanes frequently do not stop. Which means I can’t cross. Then the driver that originally stopped gets pissed that I’m not crossing and eventually drives off in what appears to be a huff. So that’s a lose-lose situation.

Then there was the driver that helpfully stopped as I approached an intersection and was rear ended by the car behind them. Not my fault, but probably lots of folks wish they’d kept rolling. I can wait for a gap. (And for that one time that actually resulted in a 3 car accident, there have been numerous occasions that have been close calls — where driver behind slams on brakes because they weren’t paying attention.)

It’s also too bad, though, that here not stopping is safer because stopping is such the exception. In stark contrast to experiences in Europe, where as soon as that pedestrian or cyclist steps up to the curb/crosswalk all the traffic stops in both directions. That’s just the expectation and it puts a priority on the more vulnerable users of the infrastructure. This instills a lot more faith in humanity than behavior around here.

It’d be great someday if stopping were the norm and actually less likely to result in loss of life or property damage.

[lordofthemark]

@hozn 159715 wrote:

Yeah, my first reaction reading the earlier posts (I did not read the article, but guessed that this was probably what was going on — i.e. trying to avoid unexpected stopping there) was that this, at least as intended, probably would improve net safety at that intersection. Obviously if a car sees someone in the street they should stop, but the sign wasn’t instructing cars to kill pedestrians in the crosswalk; it was instructing them not to stop if they see someone waiting to stop.

Crossing at that intersection sucks. It can take awhile waiting for a gap. I’ve never actually experienced drivers stopping there. This sign highlights a problem, but I don’t think it actually makes the situation worse. I prefer cars not stop for exactly the reason Tania mentions. In multi-lane-in-each-direction crossings — like this one — the cars in the adjacent lanes frequently do not stop. Which means I can’t cross. Then the driver that originally stopped gets pissed that I’m not crossing and eventually drives off in what appears to be a huff. So that’s a lose-lose situation.

Then there was the driver that helpfully stopped as I approached an intersection and was rear ended by the car behind them. Not my fault, but probably lots of folks wish they’d kept rolling. I can wait for a gap. (And for that one time that actually resulted in a 3 car accident, there have been numerous occasions that have been close calls — where driver behind slams on brakes because they weren’t paying attention.)

It’s also too bad, though, that here not stopping is safer because stopping is such the exception. In stark contrast to experiences in Europe, where as soon as that pedestrian or cyclist steps up to the curb/crosswalk all the traffic stops in both directions. That’s just the expectation and it puts a priority on the more vulnerable users of the infrastructure. This instills a lot more faith in humanity than behavior around here.

It’d be great someday if stopping were the norm and actually less likely to result in loss of life or property damage.

The situation may be different in Sterling, but at Shirlington Road where the 4MRT crosses, if you don’t cross when a car is stopped at a crosswalk, there are occasions when the time to cross would be very, very, very long. You just have to proceed slowly (because the non stopping traffic will usually stop once a ped or cyclist has actually entered the intersection) and look carefully into the other lane. Now that is different in that it has a hand operated walk signal, but since many drivers ignore that signal until someone enters the intersection, I am not sure it is that different.

As for rear ending, someone who does stop, should do so gradually, not slam on the brakes. Not sure if they are slamming on the brakes there because of the overall high rate of speed? In general someone should be prepared to stop where ever there is a crosswalk (and this goes for my fellow cyclists on the streets of DC and Alexandria, as well as for drivers).

So if someone is yielding to a pedestrian (or cyclist) about to enter a crosswalk, I have a hard time faulting them for either the failure of the cyclists/ped to cross slowly and look carefully at the other lane, or the failure of the driver in the other lane to stop.

In fact Kaye Kory has tried to get the obligation of a driver to NOT pass another driver stopped at a crosswalk for a pedestrian written into the Va code. I believe the initiative failed and has not been introduced again recently.

[bentbike33]

@lordofthemark 159719 wrote:

As for rear ending, someone who does stop, should do so gradually, not slam on the brakes. Not sure if they are slamming on the brakes there because of the overall high rate of speed? In general someone should be prepared to stop where ever there is a crosswalk (and this goes for my fellow cyclists on the streets of DC and Alexandria, as well as for drivers).

Puts me in mind of an incident on a wet afternoon last fall at the Ohio Drive crosswalk near the Hains Point entrance. I was westbound, waiting in the median. Car in the near southbound lane comes to an easy stop, don’t recall what was happening in the far southbound lane, but well behind the stopped car a gray SUV was careening around the curve and made me think, “He’s not going to be able to stop”. So I held my place, and sure enough despite the best efforts of the SUV’s antilock brake system, he hit the stopped car hard enough to make a cracking plastic sound, but not hard enough to move the stopped car. If I was writing the citations, they would have been “Inattentive Driving” and “Too Fast for Conditions”.

[jrenaut]

@MFC 159711 wrote:

Its not an imitation of an official traffic control device. This provision is aimed at fake stop signs, etc.

I’m not a lawyer, but I think a broad reading of that provision would include this. The intent here is clearly to control traffic. Unless “in imitation” has a specific legal meaning here, I think it applies.

[jabberwocky]

My process is, once a car in the near lane stops, I slowly proceed but stop short of the second lane and just make myself visible, and don’t cross the second lane until traffic has clearly stopped there too. Sometimes people aren’t paying attention to the car in the right lane stopping but do notice once they see someone is in the crosswalk looking at them. I’ve never had that not result in one of the next few cars stopping as well.

That intersection does suck. Its like wiehle; wide, high speed traffic and traffic usually isn’t paying much attention to the trail or crosswalk. And at heavier traffic times of day it can be hard to get a break to safely get across.

I do think this dude is rather misguided. If someone stops and a cyclist/pedestrian enters the crosswalk, they now have right of way. The fact that someone in the next lane over is going too fast to stop/paying too little attention to see whats going on isn’t the fault of the pedestrian, nor is it the fault of the person who stopped to let them cross.

[scoot]

@bobco85 159695 wrote:

It’s this kind of thinking that led to the NPS Park Police ticketing drivers at Memorial Circle for stopping for pedestrians and cyclists.

What? When was this?

[mstone]

Someone just needs to put up a bigger sign above this one, with a down arrow and “if you follow this advice, you are an asshole”

[ImaCynic]

I recently started doing the Heisman when approaching a busy crosswalk i.e. GW Pkwy crossing from MVT to Memorial Bridge, it was far more effective than those flashing lights! I can stop motorist from 60 to 0 in 3 seconds flat!

I also don’t wave thanks to motorists at crossings as I think it sends the wrong message; doing so makes it look like they’re doing me a favor. It’s like waving thanks to drivers waiting at a red light, they are required to stop!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[hozn]

@lordofthemark 159719 wrote:

The situation may be different in Sterling, but at Shirlington Road where the 4MRT crosses, if you don’t cross when a car is stopped at a crosswalk, there are occasions when the time to cross would be very, very, very long. You just have to proceed slowly (because the non stopping traffic will usually stop once a ped or cyclist has actually entered the intersection) and look carefully into the other lane. Now that is different in that it has a hand operated walk signal, but since many drivers ignore that signal until someone enters the intersection, I am not sure it is that different.

Yeah, it’s different. There are gaps due to the lights further up/down the road. There are also long streams of high-speed traffic with no gaps. But in my experience, one doesn’t have to wait any longer than intersections that do have a light. (Really, this intersection should have a light. It seems equivalent to not having a light for Gallows Rd, though there’s at least a center island in the case of Sterling Blvd.)

@lordofthemark 159719 wrote:

As for rear ending, someone who does stop, should do so gradually, not slam on the brakes. Not sure if they are slamming on the brakes there because of the overall high rate of speed? In general someone should be prepared to stop where ever there is a crosswalk (and this goes for my fellow cyclists on the streets of DC and Alexandria, as well as for drivers).

Yeah, that was probably a bad anecdote, as it actually happened on a single lane (in each direction), which isn’t what we’re talking about and was just inattentive driver. In general, I do appreciate it when folks on these roads stop for me to cross, though obviously care needs to be taken to do it slowly (and drivers need to leave enough space).

@lordofthemark 159719 wrote:

So if someone is yielding to a pedestrian (or cyclist) about to enter a crosswalk, I have a hard time faulting them for either the failure of the cyclists/ped to cross slowly and look carefully at the other lane, or the failure of the driver in the other lane to stop.

Yeah, I don’t know that anyone is saying it’s their fault (even the sign owner?) just that it is more likely to result in an accidents. As apparently has happened. And it’s not surprising given my experience with people stopping on those roads. A less jaded cyclist would probably proceed into the intersection assuming that other cars will also be stopping.

Really, I think the problem is that traffic is too heavy and fast there to have a safe crossing without benefit of light or at least the flashing yellows.

@lordofthemark 159719 wrote:

In fact Kaye Kory has tried to get the obligation of a driver to NOT pass another driver stopped at a crosswalk for a pedestrian written into the Va code. I believe the initiative failed and has not been introduced again recently.

Yeah, this should really be a law. Not only do adjacent drivers frequently (typically?) fail to stop in these situations, but I’ve seen on numerous occasions drivers that are behind the stopping car will swerve around into the other lane to pass. That is obviously a situation that is even more dangerous to anyone in the crosswalk.

[FFX_Hinterlands]

I just submitted a VDOT report asking that these illegal signs be removed from the road.

[Judd]

@FFX_Hinterlands 159751 wrote:

I just submitted a VDOT report asking that these illegal signs be removed from the road.

Caught a bit of a news report this morning that said that VDOT had removed the signs.

[bobco85]

@scoot 159726 wrote:

What? When was this?

I remember it happened a few years ago, so it popped back into my head when I saw this thread. I couldn’t find the original source of how I found out about it, but I did find this article: https://ggwash.org/view/10266/park-police-hassle-driver-who-stops-at-gw-parkway-crossing

[VA2DC]

@f148vr 159732 wrote:

I recently started doing the Heisman when approaching a busy crosswalk i.e. GW Pkwy crossing from MVT to Memorial Bridge, it was far more effective than those flashing lights! I can stop motorist from 60 to 0 in 3 seconds flat!

You wear a leather helmet and carry a football on your rides? Seriously, though, what do you do to bring traffic to a halt? :confused:

[Brendan von Buckingham]

The irony of that fake sign is that it is at precisely the point where a car needs to start stopping in order to stop before the crosswalk. Sign was put up 100 feet before the crosswalk. Speed limit is 35 mph which is 50 feet/second. At 35 mph you have 1 second to decide–should I stop or should I go–and then one second to stop.

The sign at that location should say actually say begin stopping here.

Which gets me to the most important design defect with these ROW xwalks on multi-lane roads: Cars stop too close to them. They need a stop line much further back and away from the xwalk. Presently, when car #1 in the near lane stops 5 feet from the xwalk, they block the line of sight for oncoming car #2 in the far lane. An impossibly dangerous situation. If the stop line was simply 25 feet back (or some other safe distance based on speed limit) then car #2 in the far lane would have their own sufficient line of sight on the xwalk and buffer time/space to come to a stop too. This is so simple it just makes me think the system doesn’t care about non-drivers.

And someone should cut down the underbrush along the trail within 50 feet of the intersection so pedestrians and cyclists can actually be seen as they approach the xwalk. Again, not hard to make it safe if you have the desire.

Or godammit, if we’re going to steal a great European idea like ROW xwalks, can’t we steal the whole freakin’ idea, you know with the zigzag lane marking telling people to stop for a xwalk and NOT OVERTAKE IN THAT ZONE.

So simple it’s already been figured out.

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